What Should Painting Sales Reps Do Outside of Selling?

Jon Bryant: Hey Michael, welcome back again. For those who don't know where you are, this is the Price Sell Paint podcast. I'm Jon Bryant. This is Michael Murray. We're excited to have you guys here today where we are going to be talking about what should sales reps be doing outside of selling a job. So I think you and I have talked a lot about this over the years and I think it's just a fun thing to chat about. What's life like over there for you Michael in Cleveland, Ohio? It's probably beautiful, right?

Michael Murray: Yeah, welcome to January. Happy new year. All the things. Yeah, it's freezing cold. It feels like it's Canada right now where we are. So you should be used to that. It's cold.

Jon Bryant: What do your houses look like though? Are they mostly made of ice or what?

Michael Murray: Well, here's the thing that's bothersome. Last week it was like 58 degrees Fahrenheit in Cleveland for like two days. And today it's like 20 degrees Fahrenheit. And I think in like three days from now, it's supposed to be like four degrees Fahrenheit. So how we managed to do that in a 10 day stretch is pretty impressive, I think. But I think there's a lot of places around the country like that.

Jon Bryant: Yeah, I mean, here what we get is really cold weather. So we had like, I don't even know what it is in Fahrenheit. Like when you say those things, I'm like, that doesn't even sound like real numbers. Sounds made up. But here we're off the Rockies, off the Rocky mountains. And so we have Chinooks they're called. And so it gets down to minus 30 Celsius. And then today it's at like 12 degrees Celsius. And that sounds really great, but there's two things that happen that are kind of sucky. One is that all the hockey rinks, the outdoor hockey rinks, all the ice goes away. It's gone. And that's like all we have. So now like crime levels go up. Everything goes up because the hockey rinks aren't available.

Michael Murray: Right. If you can't fight somebody on the ice rink, you gotta fight somebody somewhere.

Jon Bryant: Yeah. Domestic abuse way up. No hockey rink. Exactly. So that and the second thing is that the pressure level changes so much that there's people here who get insane headaches. Like over this time, like migraine central. And so there's so many people that just ask themselves the question of like, why do I live in this place? It's like cold in the winter, or I'm getting migraines and I can't play hockey. Or in the summer it's like super windy. So anyways, I don't know.

Michael Murray: For somebody who might be getting a migraine listening to us talk about the weather, I think we should dive into this whole sales experience. I brought up this topic before we started recording and I find it really interesting because I think there's a wide disparity within our industry. Should sales reps be managing projects after they sell it? Should they be involved in getting referrals? What about getting payments? How do they deal with unhappy customers? And there's so many little things that sales reps can spend their time on outside of being at an estimate appointment and trying to sell that job. And like, is that the best use of their time? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I think there's room for varying opinions on this topic. But yeah, I think probably most people, whatever company, whatever your philosophy is on this, it might be a good opportunity to just stop and rethink that. Are we asking people to spend their time on the most productive things that they could be? And even just as importantly, is this the right person? Is this the best person in our company to be spending time on this? And especially as companies are growing, I think that's going to change a lot.

Jon Bryant: Yeah, so maybe let's go back to, what is your philosophy on what a sales rep should be doing? Because I think it matters, right? Like there's that whole idea of independent contractors versus team members, full-time employees of the business. And I know that it kind of goes, people fall in different camps, like there's different silos on this. You can be like an independent contractor. We just get a lead and literally you just try to go sell that lead. And that's all you do. Or on the flip side, you are a part of the team and you have a bunch of responsibilities. Where do you fall?

Michael Murray: Yeah. I mean, I think that's really interesting. Just to make a comment about what we just said. I mean, some of the biggest home improvement companies in North America, in the window space and roofing space and gutters and things like that generally operate with like an independent sales rep, in the United States, that's like your 1099 sales rep type of a model where they're pretty much doing what you just said, right? The company does all the marketing, they provide all the leads, they schedule the appointment, that independent sales rep shows up. It's their job to sell that appointment. Oftentimes it's like a one call close, which means they get one opportunity to sell it. I have a friend at a window company, one of the really big ones, but he lives locally here. And he said that if you don't sell it at the appointment, that's it. Like somebody else is going to follow up. They're going to have an inside salesperson call that homeowner the next day. The sales rep does not have any more contact other than within the window of like, I showed up at your house, I left your house and that's it. That's not what we do. You can certainly be successful. Obviously. I mean, some of these companies I'm describing are in the billions of annual revenue. So that's not to say that it doesn't work. Our sales reps are W-2 employees and so we ask them to be a little bit more part of the team, if you will. I don't know if that's, we're certainly not in the billions. So don't know if that's the right approach or not. But I feel like it fits a little bit better with just how I want to treat people and how I want people to feel like they're a part of something bigger than what they are.

Jon Bryant: Yeah, I'd be so curious to know the theory behind that. Like, have you ever talked to this friend about why it works like that? Do they think that? Yeah, let's hear the stories behind there.

Michael Murray: Yeah, I mean, I think there's a couple of things. One, they want to, so in the window space, it is a little, it's very different. I think it's, I would say probably more sophisticated competition. And it's easy to figure out because of all the marketing that's done. I mean, it's massive marketing in those industries. It's easy to find companies to get competitive quotes from. Plus there's a lot of mom and pops and local providers and things like that too. And so I feel like the argument that somebody from that type of company would make is, if we don't close it on the spot, we're going to have a significant drop off in winning that deal in a follow-up. They're going to go with somebody else because there's a lot of other good options. In the painting industry, it's so fragmented. The size of marketing budgets and stuff are significantly less. It's probably more difficult for homeowners to maybe figure out what those other good options are. I also think there's something to be said for if the homeowner didn't book on the spot, perhaps it's because they didn't connect with that sales pro, that rep, if you will, and having someone else take over that deal might just have an opportunity for a better connection. Maybe the rep did something wrong. Maybe they didn't offer financing or something that that inside salesperson can figure that out, maybe through some recording software or whatever, and save that deal with a next day follow up kind of a thing. I think that's some of the stuff.

Jon Bryant: Is it just anything to do with? Yeah, I mean, all that makes sense. It's interesting to try to dissect it and figure out what works and why it works. And we'll go into the rest of our conversation as well, like what should sales reps be doing. But the thing that I wonder about is for painting specifically, I wonder compared to, say, windows. How many people who get a window quote and don't do the job versus painting where they kind of have no baseline of what it's going to be. They get it. The prices are all over the map and they get like analysis paralysis and don't do it. I wonder if it's lower or higher? They're more, what I'm getting at is a more urgent decision from a customer. Like say an HVAC call, like my furnace is out, I gotta get a new furnace. And that person, if they can't sell them on the spot, well, someone else is doing that job. I don't know, I wonder what the variance would be there.

Michael Murray: Yeah. I think that's where that definition of home service versus home improvement. Because to me, I feel like generally speaking, there are no painting emergencies. Sometimes we create emergencies within our companies, but that's a whole other story. Customers aren't calling us with like, I need this fixed today.

Jon Bryant: But that's also how they live their entire life, right? Like they're just like running around being like, dinner has to get cooked. Yes, that happens every day. Chill out.

Michael Murray: All right. Chill out. Yeah. So anyway, that's like garage doors, HVAC, plumbing, electric, like those companies, I can see where some of this stuff they do can be more like emergency based, right? Again, we're talking at the beginning of podcast, we're talking about how cold it is. If my heat goes out, I'm kind of going with the first person who shows up and is not, whoever answers the phone kind of a thing. In home improvement, it is more project-based. It's more custom solutions. It, I think, yeah, I was going say it's a little bit more labor driven. Not a hundred percent, I'd have to really think through all the different places, but I think that's probably pretty accurate. And to your point though, there's less of a sense of urgency.

Jon Bryant: But they believe you do.

Michael Murray: I think if I'm getting window quotes, like I don't have to make a decision today. I actually think it is, the reality of the situation is probably not much different than painting. I believe though that those window companies do a, I'll say different job, maybe better, depends on your opinion here, but certainly a different job of creating a sense of urgency and a sense of, like I need to make a decision today. I also think they probably do a better job of giving homeowners the information they need to make a decision. And I think there's again, a different type of salesperson who's going to thrive in that type of a sales environment. Not to say one's better or worse than the other.

Jon Bryant: Yeah, so that model though of like sales rep going out and then inside sales following up, I don't think that's very common in the painting industry. Would you agree?

Michael Murray: Very rare. I don't, I'm sure it exists. I don't know. I can't think of one off the top of my head of a company that I know of that does that.

Jon Bryant: Yeah. So going back to kind of the theme of this podcast, which is what sales reps should do outside of selling. I think in both of our worlds, sales rep is part of the team. They have roles that are important to the entire process of the business. And we don't just ask them to sell jobs. Now I am aware of some people that that's their theory is that sales reps should just sell jobs. So some of these things won't apply. And I think it's more just the idea of thinking about this, like what falls into that position vision for this particular role? Like what do they contribute? What are they doing? What's their comp? I think it all ties together. So let me just go through maybe the first one, just to give people the spirit of what we're doing. So in your opinion, things like Google reviews. Who should be getting the Google review? Is that a sales function or is that some other function inside the business?

Michael Murray: Yeah. So I would say, my opinion, what we do, I think it's production. I think it's post completion or near the end of the completion is the best time, on the last day we've been working in your home. I also think that people write Google reviews for people, not for companies. And I think while sales reps have to build a connection with a homeowner, you're there for an hour, hour and a half. The painting crew and the crew leader has been at their house for a couple of days, a couple of weeks, whatever that looks like, you have a different level of a relationship. And so I feel like that's the best person to do that ask. I think it could be the sales rep. I don't think that's bad. I just think the production team doing it is a little bit better.

Jon Bryant: I think your best rate for success is the production team for the reason you talked about, which is relationships and people write reviews for people. But I think there's a missed opportunity in what a sales rep can do to get Google reviews. I think, and this thinking comes from the fact that like we've had a bunch of over the years, bad Google reviews for things that are totally abstract and still bring down our review score overall, but they're like, somebody swerved in a lane on the road, bad company. Someone drove too fast, bad company. Someone didn't return my phone call, bad company. And it led me to thinking like, well, what can we do that's kind of similar? Like, where should we be getting reviews? And I think that sales reps can get reviews after estimates. So hey, how did it go today? Did you enjoy the estimate? Would you be able to leave me a five-star review on my service today? Again that's person-to-person. And I think there's a way to get way more reviews that way than what we think is just a single job. They do what 20 estimates a week? It's like 20 Google reviews. We should be getting 50 reviews a week. I don't know. That, to me, is the chance where they can get their service reviewed.

Michael Murray: Yeah, I agree. For sure. Yeah, and I think the biggest difference there is that you can get a review from somebody you don't necessarily book a job with, where if you have the production team do it, you're just starting with a smaller pool of people, because you're not going to book every estimate.

Jon Bryant: Absolutely. Correct. Yeah, exactly. So start with the biggest. And then it kind of offsets some of that. Like I wish some people would review the company and be like, someone was driving really well, five stars. Or like they were at a restaurant and they looked at me nicely, five stars. Like where are those reviews? I don't see us getting those.

Michael Murray: That's never gonna happen. Yeah. I mean, part of it, and I don't think I'm the first one to say this, but it's just like the psychology of consumers is if I'm upset, I will take all the effort in the world to figure out a way to tell people about it. If I'm happy, I'm not going to go through a whole lot of friction to tell people about it. And so that's where it's like, who's asking, right? It's the asking for the referral that's so important. And I just think in general a lot of businesses in our industry could do a better job of just asking more frequently and more consistently. And they would have better results. The idea that like, if people are happy, they're just going to go leave a review isn't true. Like, there's enough studies out there that have been done to show that unhappy customers will leave you a review. Happy customers will leave you a review only if you ask and make it easy. And even then they still might not.

Jon Bryant: Yeah, they might say they'll do it, then they won't. This guy right here. I'm guilty. So.

Michael Murray: Yeah, I mean, think about how many people are listening right now and they're starting to enjoy it. They're getting some content out of this, but they're not writing a review for us like they should on Apple or Spotify or whatever, right? Like those people.

Jon Bryant: Yeah, yeah, they go look at themselves in the mirror. Yeah. They go look themselves in the mirror tonight or this morning when they brush their teeth and they're going to have to look into their own eyes and say, like, I didn't leave that review for those guys. It's wild. Wild world, man. I don't either. Well, let's move on. So one of the concepts I've heard kind of throughout the industry is sales rep sells the job, manages the job. Where do you stand on that?

Michael Murray: Yeah. So yeah, that's a big one. And I think it's almost like you could start here, right? Because I think what we're, so at the end of the day, what we're talking about is like, how are we trying to maximize the sales reps time? And I think it's like, I think we all understand that like the more things they do that aren't just doing quotes, estimates, whatever means the less time they have to do quotes and estimates. And so it's like, okay. If it's getting a review, that's not that much time. So that probably doesn't take away much in the vein of doing estimates. You mentioned like 20 estimates a week. Maybe that's the right number. Maybe it's not. Everybody's got different opinions on that. But it's like, that doesn't. But what does take a lot of time away is if you're trying to manage the production team. There are big successful companies in our industry that have the sales professional sell the job and then manage the team that's producing it, whether it's subcontractors or employees doesn't really matter. I would say slightly different, maybe, but like not the point of this conversation. I personally am not a fan of that. And the main reason for it is I just think it's two different skillsets. I think it takes a different type of skillset and personality to go out and sell projects than it does to manage people to produce the work.

Jon Bryant: Yeah, so where I come from on that opinion is I agree with you and I think it's a very specialized skill set to sell. Coming back to that, like, saying my dad ingrained in my brain, like, he branded it in there was it's easier to do the job than get the job. And I don't believe that's actually true. For those listening, I think the craft that we're in, the trade that we're in is difficult at times to produce the job. But the point he was trying to make is that getting the job is hypercritical to be able to do the job. I don't often hear people in the middle of winter complain about how hard it is to do a job. Typically they're complaining about where's the leads, how do I get more work? And that's where we want to be specialized in terms of creating that engine for the company to keep it flowing. We're like a lot of times we're hand to mouth kind of, so to speak, and what we do in that, like we need work in two weeks. So should you be managing a job? Well, the company needs work in two weeks. My argument is no, you should be doing everything you can to get the next job. So anyways, that's my theory. I know we agree on that. I would love, as always, comments. If you feel otherwise, feel free to leave us a comment, message us, because I want to learn a little bit more all the time with this stuff. What's possible out there? I think I've thought of it all, but I'm not the smartest guy in the room. So let's keep that in mind.

Michael Murray: Yeah. Well, I think the part of the argument for why somebody should sell the job and manage it, I think two things come to mind. One, you've already built the relationship with that homeowner, customer, commercial or otherwise doesn't matter. And so like you went out, you built that relationship, they trust you. And so it's like, they want to, like, you sold me the job. Like, where did you go? Kind of a thing. And in our model, like the sales reps kind of gone in a way, right? They're still available. We can talk about that. But somebody else, our field manager is kind of stepping in and saying, hi, I'm going to oversee the crew leader who's going to really be on site and make sure everything goes well. But if you need anything, I'm here. That's like another person, another point of contact. And it's confusing for homeowners. And who do I call when I have an issue? If I could just have that one person who I first met with, who I really liked that I think I could make the argument in some ways is better. Maybe it's better for the homeowner or whatever. I also think that's like, they know the job, right? I mean, how many problems happen in companies because sales rep promised something, forgot to tell the production team about it. Production team goes out, doesn't do it, homeowner's upset. Where it's like, if that's the same person that you don't have to take as good a notes. You don't have to relay that information. You don't have to communicate as well. You're the same person. This customer's preferences are X, Y, and Z, no big deal. I'm going to be there on day one as they start the project, and I'll just relay that stuff then. So I can see where some of those arguments can come.

Jon Bryant: Yeah, there's definitely a streamlined element. I think as I've seen a company grow, it gets harder and harder to make the time. It's a lot of driving here. A lot of, depending on where you live, it can be very consuming to get there, do the handoff, but it's a perfect world. I would love to see that happen. I just, I don't know, it's possible.

Michael Murray: But I think, and again, I think what the problem I see though is that again, there are two different skillsets. And so that person is going to choose one of those things to really spend their time on. And the other one is going to be neglected, whether it's the sales side or the production management side, like whichever one they're better at, more comfortable with and enjoy doing more, they're going to thrive in. And the other one is going to be kind of not as good as opposed to hiring two different people and letting them specialize, building good communication systems and stuff to make sure that you don't drop the ball. Yeah, again, that's my preference, but I can see the argument.

Jon Bryant: Cool. All right, let's move on to the next one, invoicing. I think invoicing is an internal function, but I think that sales reps need to get involved sometimes when customers don't pay or maybe they need a gentle reminder after a while, or to check in for payment. I know you think slightly different about this and I think it's important to hear about.

Michael Murray: Why? I want to understand like why do you, what is the, so just so I can understand it. We're talking about like final payment, right? So I go out, I sell a job and a month later we paint it and a few weeks go by, customer hasn't paid or something like that. That's kind of the scenario we're in, right? Now it's like, hey, office staff, whatever says to me as a sales rep, hey, Mrs. Smith hasn't paid us. It's been a few weeks. Could you help us out here? Could you help us get the final payment? What value am I bringing as the sales rep that like somebody else, why is the sales rep the best person in that situation? Help me understand that.

Jon Bryant: Yeah, so and this is something that in our discussions has changed my opinions over the years, which is that to the point earlier about relationship, like the sales rep sold the job. They have a relationship. Oftentimes the customer will communicate with them and we've leveraged that relationship to get paid at times. One of the negative things though, is that it does add negative energy to the day for the sales rep and causes just problems that are on the plate. And that's been challenging. So yeah.

Michael Murray: This is my problem with it. Like in general, I can see like, sure, why not? Like, hey, sales reps, like it. They've got time. They make a phone call for us. Like why not? It's not that big of a deal. The problem though, is I think one of the most important things, and this even goes back to managing the production, but one of the most important things for a sales rep is how confident are they in what they're selling? How confident are they in the crew's ability to deliver just excellence. And if you've been doing this stuff long enough, you know that like there's a lot of ways to have small little things on a job, little touch ups, little whatever that need to get taken care of. Sometimes some customers will take those little things and blow them up into big deals and they're really difficult to deal with these types of customers and whatever. And when sales reps hear about these things, they can start to lose confidence. Man, look at like, we've got two touch-ups. This is ridiculous. Like, why do we have any touch-ups? Why is the customer freaking out? Like there's paint all over their floor. And it's like, no, there's one little tiny dot and it came up in 10 seconds. But it's like sales reps, they might not have that context of this is a small fix. Just like a homeowner might not, right? They might not realize that, oh this is a small touch up. Let me grab a brush. I'll take care this for you right now. I'd be happy to. And so it's like, that can become a problem. And I've seen that become a problem where sales reps, when they start to hear about these things, which again, oftentimes if somebody hasn't paid us, it's because there's a problem. I kind of feel like sometimes I want to protect the sales reps from that. We might need to just go fix the, like, why are we having this problem by all means, but I also just kind of want to protect the sales rep.

Jon Bryant: Yeah. It's been a debate internally of how to handle that. So when there are issues and the customer's no longer communicating, who has the best chance to get in touch with them? And it's often the sales rep because they're like, you sold it to me. I'm going to tell you what's going on. And, it comes to the next point, which is customer complaints, which fall into that similar kind of category, right?

Michael Murray: Yeah. I also want to talk about deposit payments too, because that might be another, when you first said invoicing, I think that might be a separate topic too that we've got on the list here. So anyway, so the customer complaints, again, I would just echo everything I just said. I don't want my sales team involved in customer complaints. That's where I come out on it.

Jon Bryant: So how do you handle it? When there's a like a he said, she said type situation, how do you handle that?

Michael Murray: I want the sales rep communication to ideally flow through like the field manager. Right. So if the problem is the customer saying, hey, the sales rep told me you guys would do this. Right. They told me that this paint would, I don't know, like I could pick any color I want and it's guaranteed coverage in one coat or something. I don't know. Whatever some sales rep might say. And it's just like, okay, like that's a problem. I want the field manager to communicate directly with the sales rep. I think there's a, like the field manager and the sales rep should be able to have a conversation that doesn't get too emotional as opposed to maybe the crew leader who's upset and dealing with this problem right now. And then the field manager can go and have a conversation with the homeowner. So, okay, I spoke with the rep, like here's what they said happened. Because like, to me, I feel like at this point, most homeowners kind of have their heels dug in and they're not just going to say like, yeah, you're right sales rep. Like you didn't say that. That's been my experience. And so it's just like, I don't know that the sales rep is actually going to be all that impactful in resolving the situation. And it goes back to everything I just said about confidence and taken away from what maybe they could be doing.

Jon Bryant: Yeah, I think it's so interesting to kind of watch the evolution of that over the years because it's so easy for people to deflect whose problem it is. So it really depends on your company policy, right? I haven't met too many people that really like going at problems head on. And so they're like, customer's unhappy. Oh shoot, I got to deal with this. Sales rep, what happened? Can you call them? And I think that oftentimes it flows up to them because they might have the information. So someone can now pass off the problem. And I like your thinking on it, which is that, and honestly, it took a conversation between us a couple of years ago for me to realize that that negative energy has an impact on the sales team. And they're kind of this group that needs to be protected in a way, because they are the ones who have to be confident and bubbly in every type of interaction to sell the service. As soon as they lose that trust, that confidence, everything goes out the window. So yeah, customer complaints, moving that over to production has been a very different thing. I think it just comes down to telling them like, hey guys, this is a production problem now. You can't call the sales rep, you gotta deal with it. And to me, lo and behold, they figured it out. But yeah, interesting. Well, any other thoughts, sir?

Michael Murray: No, I was gonna say, I mean, what about deposits and getting projects ready? Like even before we start. I mean, my mind goes to like color selection and different things like that. Like post sale, but pre production.

Jon Bryant: Yeah. So I believe that getting the deposit is the sales rep's job. Because I don't think it's a job until you get the deposit. That's our, we get a deposit on jobs to secure a job, they're licensed to do all that stuff, it's part of our process. And so many people over the years have said, yeah, yeah, we're going with you guys. Don't get the deposit. Next thing you know, they found someone cheaper or can do it tomorrow or it's a friend. And it's not an official thing until you get it. So I think we require sales reps to do that. The rest of the preamble to the job, we believe, is an internal administration function. So it's typically handled by someone internally who's scheduling and organizing jobs.

Michael Murray: Does it make a difference as far as the deposit, whether or not the customer agrees on the spot versus on a follow-up or after the sales rep has left? Does that matter?

Jon Bryant: And in the system we created now, I mean, obviously we're using PaintScout. You're getting the deposit on the app. It's quite seamless. It's done usually by credit card. We prefer credit card deposits because it's just, now if you get it now, you put your information in. So, no, it really doesn't matter if it's on site or after it's just, that's the sign that it's now officially a job. Yeah.

Michael Murray: Makes sense. Yeah, I think we're, I don't, I think that's probably okay. I don't disagree with you that a sale isn't a sale until we have a deposit. Our philosophy is if you sell it on the spot, get the deposit. If you sell it post, we'll have our project coordinator get the deposit. Because for us, once a sale happens, once a customer signs in PaintScout, we have all these automations and whatever, within 24 hours, project coordinator has to call that homeowner, that new customer now, and introduce themselves as their new point of contact to get everything ready until the crew leader becomes their point of contact when they show up at the front door to start the project. And so it's like on that initial phone call is when they're making sure that we have a deposit, right? If the customer hasn't already just done it automatically or whatever, it's the project coordinator's job to make sure that that happens. I actually think, so this is a thing I think we are going to consider changing this year. Our sales reps earn commissions on these jobs and things like that, right? When a customer doesn't pay a deposit, not surprisingly, they don't earn a commission, right? There's no sale, nothing happened. And so I want our sales reps to care more. And I feel like it's actually going to be going back to the conversation we had whatever it was 10 or 15 minutes ago about collecting payments after the project kind of that accounts receivable issue. Similarly, it's like, it's the project coordinator's job to get the deposit for like a couple of days. If they're not getting it, the sales rep then needs to get it because if this goes on for like a week, there's a problem and we either already lost the job or we're going to. And so it's like, even a week is probably too long. Like I want reps involved in a few days if they don't pay. So I think we're getting closer to what you described.

Jon Bryant: Yeah, I mean. We love, I mean, we created that deposit feature within PaintScout for that reason, which is that it immediately sends over a sub invoice to the customer. When they accept, it says pay deposit now, and it just goes, they sign and they pay. And it's quite seamless. It's pretty cool that way. And I think it's because to your point, like we view the sales person as the person who's getting commissioned, that they have to somewhat be responsible for the money. Like if you sell someone who's not paying, well, we're not paying that commission. And so there's only so far it goes in accounts receivable for the sales reps. Like I want to get paid on that. I'm calling.

Michael Murray: Yeah. Yeah. No, you're right. I mean, PaintScout makes it easy, but they're again, I guess what we're talking about is like the people that don't do like that automatic, for whatever reason, there's some percentage of people who sign their quote and did not pay a deposit instantly. They want to pay with a check or whatever their thing is. And it's just like, that's where it gets a little wonky. And yeah, I think there's an opportunity for us to do better.

Jon Bryant: Do you guys take a lot of checks these days? Like overall?

Michael Murray: I would say it's probably less than half of our total payments, but not like way less than half. So I would say, yeah, like we still take a lot. I mean, we're taking millions of dollars of check payments, which is nuts. I mean, it's like, honestly, we're trying, I want, I would like us to take a lot more ACH payments. That seems like a super uphill battle. It's just not part of how anybody thinks that's like a normal payment option. It's like a way more secure form of a check.

Jon Bryant: Did you know it's now part of PaintScout payments, ACH? So you can, people do it all the time. Yeah, we don't have ACH here in Canada, but yeah, so.

Michael Murray: Yeah. I like it. Yeah. It's just, okay. The problem, it's just, I don't know if it's like a regional thing or whatever, but it's like, when somebody is like, we want to pay with a check and it's like, okay, well, you can just do an ACH payment. It's basically the same thing. What we find is that homeowners are just like, yeah, I don't know really what that is and I'll just write you a check. And they're like intimidated by it. Maybe that's the right word. And it's just like, you know, and it's like, part of my whole philosophy is like, we should make it as easy as all heck to get paid. Like if somebody wants to give us money, make it easy. I don't care. Like if they want to, I don't like cash, but it's just like, whatever we'll figure it out. Like we'll take care of it. I actually hate getting cash because somebody's got to go to the bank and it just becomes a thing. I've got my money gun that you gave me sitting over here. So I just put it in that. Sometimes I throw some real money in there and just go crazy with it. But yeah, so anyways, I don't know. I mean, again, it's just like, I don't want our sales reps going and getting those checks. It's like.

Jon Bryant: So what's interesting, yeah. To your point is when we introduced credit card payment on the deposit, our deposits are like 95% credit card payment. And it happens immediately. It's like, boom, boom, done job booked. So it took away all of that friction of getting a check and the delays, getting e-transfers is what happens here in Canada. And those can happen very fast, but oftentimes people just, once something else comes up after the sale and they just miss it and they're tracking it down where it's like the credit card thing. It was kind of a game changer for us in terms of getting those payments quickly and sales reps feeling confidence and the job is going ahead. So anyways.

Michael Murray: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I like it. Colors. I mean, so, I think, I mean, we have an interior designer, it's their job to go help pick out colors. It's not the sales reps job. The one place that we actually have had sales reps be involved though. And it's like not much, but it's like, it is a thing. And I'll say it out loud is like when it's a like custom match, or it's like, we've got to get, we're color matching, like, something on the house or like paint chip matching or match the old paint can. It's like, I want the sales reps. It's just like, while you're at the house, go find the paint can or with the customer or whatever, and like take some pictures of that, put that in your Company Cam so that when they book, we have that color information handy so that I can save the interior designer from having to make a trip out there just to go take a picture of a paint can or whatever. So it's like the matching as opposed to just picking off the color deck, the stuff that's like a little, doesn't happen often, but we have had reps be a little bit involved with that over the years.

Jon Bryant: Yeah, same thing on our end. It's more of the just the manual process of getting the color to get matched. Anytime there's input on color, we kind of don't want our sales people doing that. It just opens up a lot of risk. We do have a couple of designers, and that helps, who can offer some slight areas of advice, but it's, ultimately it's about the job, creating the vision for the job, the transformation, then selling it, getting out of there, moving on to the next one. So, yeah.

Michael Murray: So I've got a really big one. We alluded to it at the very beginning of the conversation and I want to come back to it and it's follow-ups. Right. And so we talked about, these window companies or whatever other companies that maybe have more of an independent model and it's inside sales like the next day and they're going to handle all the follow-ups. I think most painting companies that I've ever talked to, the sales rep handles all of the follow-up, whether it's, call me in a couple of days, call me in a week. Or it's like, the month long customer needs more time or they're ghosting us or whatever. It's just like, it's basically what I've seen is once a lead is assigned to a sales rep, that sales rep owns it or no one does. It's just like, it's that sales rep's job to sell it, or it's just not a sale. I don't agree with that. So, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on it and then I can maybe jump back in and talk about how we do things.

Jon Bryant: Yeah, so in our world, I think there's two functions in follow-up. One, there's the immediate follow-up. So you do the estimate. Typically people aren't ready on site. Although, we do close at a high percentage on site too, because we have the price available, but sometimes they want some time to talk or think it over. Those initial couple follow-ups are part of the sales rep function, but then after that it does get turned into a marketing function. So we'll take bulk, typically I'd say it's about a month. There's been no response for a month and it turns into a marketing function and that falls into a couple of buckets. It's like, you know what? Permission to close out the job is one we've used in the past. So, hey, like we have a defined time period on the quote being valid, it's being invalid. So it's like an email that just says like, are you okay if we close this out, prices may change in the future. Did you want to go ahead? That's kind of one of the emails. And then after that, it's like remarketing on that same type of work. Where are you at?

Michael Murray: Yeah. Yeah, we're so, it's changed. Like I don't think we have this perfect. It's been a probably two year conversation. And I think we're like, kind of getting closer and closer to I think what I would say is like the permanent system or whatever permanent-ish. Where right now it's like two to three weeks. So a sales rep has about two weeks post initial estimate to make a sale. Goes back to the conversation about like why the window company loses it after the day. If somebody else needs to try here. So they get the initial stuff, call me next week type stuff, call me in a couple of days. And then maybe that one, they don't get ahold of them. You still got another few days to a week or whatever, but after two weeks, what are we doing? And we allow our reps to put, I think our number right now is 10. So you can put 10 opportunities in like a bank and those 10, nobody else is working. So they're basically saying, I have like probably some verbal agreement with the homeowner. Hey, we're going out of town for two weeks. I'm going to be back when we get back, I'm signing this job. And it's like, okay, that makes sense. Put that in your bank. You should get credit for that. It makes sense why they haven't booked. It's not your fault. But you can only have 10. So if you've got 10, you got to take something else out. And you probably put that one in a month ago and like whatever you thought was going to happen, it hasn't happened. It goes back to inside sales, a role within the company. And that is not the inside sales person's job to be focused on selling it. And my argument for it is, if reps are doing for us, it's like probably about 13 to 15 appointments in a week is pretty normal. I think anything more than like 16 or 17, I think they're stretched too thin personally. But let's just say you're doing that many quotes. It's like in two weeks stretch, you got 30 people. After two weeks, like you don't have time to talk to the people that you talked to a month ago. And so what's happening is nobody's talking to them. Nobody's following up with them. And I feel like in our industry, there's a lot of value in quotes that you gave a month ago. It takes a long time for some people to make these decisions, budget and just life gets in the way and they come back to it or whatever. It's not an emergency like we talked about. And so I want somebody to be focused on actively pursuing those maybe more stale opportunities. That's my whole philosophy.

Jon Bryant: Interesting. What has been the success rate of that?

Michael Murray: It's hard, right? I would say, so our inside salesperson sells jobs. And I think, so my whole argument for it was we would have customers reach out to us like a year after they got a quote and say like, hey, you guys gave me a quote last year. I want to go ahead and get on the schedule. And it's like, we have some email marketing and we have, I would say a pretty sophisticated marketing function. And so like they've heard from us. But nobody's been actively pursuing selling this job, right? They've got a few drip emails over the months or whatever. My thought is just like, if I've got 10 of those a year or whatever, how many would we get if somebody was actively calling that person six months afterwards or whatever? And again, that's the inside sales rep's job. And so yeah, it has worked. It's turned into like a re-quote opportunity quite often. It's turned into, I actually had somebody else do that work. It's maybe six months later, I had somebody else do that work, but I have another project. Why don't we send somebody else out? Where I think oftentimes sales reps are just like, yeah, that one's dead. It was a bad lead. Like, I don't know if they weren't serious about it. And it's just like, you're just saying that because you never got ahold of them and you're sick of calling them.

Jon Bryant: With the inside sales, do you work it in a way where that person's calling or do they email, they text? Like how does the conversation start?

Michael Murray: Mostly calls. It's a call first and text and email. But I want to get somebody on the phone.

Jon Bryant: Okay. You then after that it's carrier pigeon, got it. So yes, we get them on the phone. That person's just calling all past estimates over two weeks old and just kind of cycling through that. Interesting. Yeah, very interesting.

Michael Murray: And so they just have, they're not going on appointments, right? So they just have more time. And so that appointment that's two months old or that opportunity, I should say that's two months old is not insignificant to them. Where for the estimator or sales rep or whatever it is, I'm going to go focus on the ones I have today, not the ones I did two months ago. I see that argument, but my thing is just like, doesn't mean there's no value there.

Jon Bryant: Right, yeah, as a business, there's a lot of value there. Interesting, cool. Well, Michael, it's probably a good way to end things, because we started with that and we ended with that, so it's a sandwich now, so that's great.

Michael Murray: I like it. That's because we plan things out so well in advance. We spend a lot of time practicing this. That's why. Good job. That's that.

Jon Bryant: And we've lived it, right? So well done. Congratulations to us. Guys, if you enjoy the podcast, feel free to give it a like, subscribe. We've had a few great messages, just people messaging us through LinkedIn. Feel free to keep doing that. We love those messages. It helps us stay connected to you guys and make sure that we're answering the questions that you have. Yeah, thanks a lot for tuning in, Michael, as always, pleasure. And we'll see you next time on the Price Sell Paint podcast. Thanks guys.

Michael Murray: Yeah. Take care.