Jon Bryant: Okay, Michael, it's November. You freaking out at all about work right now or how are leads?

Michael Murray: I'm always freaking out. I own a small business. There's always something to freak out about. Winter is absolutely coming, even though it's relatively nice. You're in Cleveland. But yeah, I don't know. Leads are okay. Definitely starting to see a slowdown.

Jon Bryant: It's been pretty good here for the last few years, hasn't it? Like, you know, with COVID and everything.

Michael Murray: Definitely starting to see a slowdown.

Jon Bryant: All right, all right, Michael, so it's November. Leads are down, I'm assuming. Talk to me about how things are going for you guys.

Michael Murray: Yeah, I mean, you know, we in this industry, we all know this time of year, things get slow. It's always been that way. I think somewhat, you know, the last few years we have all been a little, I don't know, maybe lulled into thinking that like winter isn't a slow time of year. You know, times were really good. And I think this year economy is maybe at least back to normal, you know, depending on where you're at, you're probably calling it a recession. And yeah, hopefully people have been planning for this for a few months. I know we have been, but it's always a little scary this time of year as we head into the holidays and you know, what happens after that is really that really slow first quarter of the year.

Jon Bryant: For sure. Yeah. I think like I've told you before, I mean, everybody seems to know, you know, October 15th hits, at least the people that knew me when, you know, running the painting business, it's like, oh, October 15th, John, you know, he's anxious, he's stressed. The leads are down, sales are down and you're kind of coming off this high of the summer. And I think we all get a little complacent, a little like, you know, things are good. Everything's good. And we turn some of this stuff off. We forget how to really work hard at things. It's the seasonal business, you know? And without that preparation, I think a lot of people, a lot of people are feeling it. I hear it all the time and I know you do too, that people are feeling the urgency, feeling that stress, and it's hard. So I think today we want to talk about those things you can do now to generate leads. You know, we've narrowed it down to I think nine, seven or nine, what have we got here? Let me look at our list. Yeah, we got nine. Nine things you can do today to really hone in your leads and start to get that momentum back for your business. And feel like you have control, right? I think that's a lot of the feeling is just you don't have control, it stresses you out. You have people that work for you. So yeah, you up for that? You up for chatting about that? Boom.

Michael Murray: 100%. Yeah, I think, you know, I've heard before like with action comes at least a feeling of control. Right. And I think hopefully what we're going to accomplish today, anybody that's able to listen in, get some benefit from this is these are some action items. These are some things that you know, business owners, sales reps, marketing pros that are working at painting companies can go and do today to start to generate some leads for the next week, the next month. And certainly as the winter goes here for the next three to six months or so. Yep.

Jon Bryant: Totally. So the first thing you do is you start with a nap, then you go for a walk, then you smoke a dart, right? That's kind of, that's the method first. And then you get into this stuff. A bourbon, yeah, get a bourbon, relax, take it down a few notches. And then number one, what's the first thing we're doing? We're, what are we going to do? We've now taken the edge off. What are we doing? I think the first thing, at least in my opinion, is follow up on past bids. What do you think?

Michael Murray: Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, I think, you know, hopefully that's something we're always doing, right? But let's be honest, we're not. You know, we don't, I think every business owner or sales rep, and especially in, you know, painting industry, I would say home services, our effort when it comes to following up on leads goes up and down kind of throughout the year and, you know, unfortunately, like in the summer, if we're being honest, we probably aren't doing that enough. We're busy, whatever, we need to do that. That's something we need to be doing, for sure. Yep.

Jon Bryant: So how do you do it? Like what's the first thing you're telling your reps to do to follow up on leads? Or I guess on a scale, right? Like, I mean, we're talking about lead generation, but these are leads that are already in the pipeline. So what are we doing to really, you know, follow up with them?

Michael Murray: Yeah, I mean, I think it's important, right? Before we do have some things on the list here of like, how do we get more leads? But one of the things we want to make sure we're doing is, are we doing everything we can with the leads we're getting? You know, we have to be aggressive. And, you know, what we're talking about is, you know, much more follow up, much more frequent and different ways. You know, it's okay if customers are going to say no, it's not okay if we don't get a response. If we're utilizing different text message, email, phone calls, all of the above, we're telling our sales reps, if you're in the neighborhood or nearby, recent bid, stop in, knock on the door. See where things are at. Don't let somebody just kind of ghost you or ignore you. How about you guys? What are you guys talking about?

Jon Bryant: For sure. Yeah, I mean, that's pretty much the same. I mean, it's, the, any answer is a good answer, but we want to put our best foot forward to get the answer we want. And so we, this time of year, it's about deal making in a lot of cases, you know, what's it going to take? Let's get an answer. We want to work with you. And it's asking for that sale, you know, so all those things kind of play into it. I think, from a level of urgency using the methods you talked about, starting with an email, hey, just want to see where you're at, moving that to a text, to a call, to a home visit, as you ratchet up the urgency. But we can't accept a non-answer here. They showed interest in painting, so let's help them get that done, and we want to be the contractor. So I think that's the message we're giving our teams. And trying to move that forward to something. So at least we know. And I think it's pretty easy in the summer when there's plenty to just neglect a few. Now's not the time, you know.

Michael Murray: I think we could probably talk, you know, there's hour-long podcasts, books written on following up and the whole sales process. I don't think we're going to cover that today, but one of the things that we try to talk a lot about is you can't lose something you don't have. And I think that's a mindset, I guess, that can happen this time of year. Where it's like, man, I'm afraid if I push on that customer too hard, I'm going to lose that sale. I don't want to be too aggressive. I don't want to be too salesy and pushy. Like, you don't have anything to lose. You don't have it. I like to talk about, like with our sales reps, my experience, I'm busy, right? I think most of us as business owners, and I've got two young kids, right, similar, I think to your story where it's like, we're all the time running around doing stuff, and to be honest with you, it's like when I'm looking to get some work done at my house, I need somebody to solve that problem for me. You know, if you're waiting for me to call you back, sometimes I don't, right? And the sales rep that's going to earn my business is the one who's, who's aggressive, you know, take that off my plate, make this easy for me. You know, if you don't hear from me, it doesn't mean I'm not interested. Just means I was busy and like the timing wasn't right and I forgot about it. So, you know, bug me the next day. That's one of the things that we talk about with our reps a lot is that. You know, like. That's your job. Make that, get this project, help the customer get this project done.

Jon Bryant: Yeah, it's what helping, right? I think the word aggressive, just to clarify, like, I think what you're saying, like, we don't want to be hard sellers or, you know, aggressive. Nobody appreciates that from a sales perspective, but what we want to do is we want to be direct about getting the answer, like, hey, you called me. What are we doing here? Let's, let's just get that. Like, I want to help you. Am I being too much? Like, maybe too much of a pest or too much here. Like, I don't want to do that, but like, you know, you contacted us. I just want to make sure I'm doing everything I can to help you. Like that's a message that resonates. And I'm the same way. Like, yeah, the person who is the most proactive in getting an answer from me, I will oftentimes work with that person. It's just inevitable. 'Cause I, yeah, I've got too many other things, too many other calls to make versus that one. So, cool.

Michael Murray: Yeah, I don't call sales reps to come over to my house because I just want somebody to chat with. Yes, I do need to get a quote or get a price, but a lot of times I can get a pretty good idea of what something's going to cost just looking around online and whatever, talking to some friends. When I get to the point that I'm asking sales reps to come over to my house, it's like I need somebody to solve this problem. And again, that's where I want our sales reps to take that seriously. They've spent the time at the customer's house and I believe they're owed at least a conversation. Yeah.

Jon Bryant: Totally. I think like a really quick anecdote from my life is that I had a leak in my roof in the basement of my house and I had to get the drywall work done. I got an estimate two years ago and I just got it done. Was it because I didn't need it? No, that hole has been there the whole time. My wife reminds me of it all the time. But it was that, you know, it took me taking another step. Whereas if the people we had gotten estimates from had called us, we probably would have hired them, honestly. Just get it done. What's the price to get this done? So, but anyway, so yeah, that's it. So that's number one, I think. Should we move to number two? Okay, so number two, we're saying, you know, call, email, send out a carrier pigeon to past customers. And, you know, I think that's all the above, all the above. So what's the message this time? What are we telling people?

Michael Murray: All of the above. I mean, I think to be honest with you, I think we can be honest with our past customers and say, hey, we're slow. We've got a hole in our schedule. Maybe it's the whatever, second week of December, we can get you in and we can get this project done for you. What kind of, what can we do at your house to get you ready for the holidays? Things like that are great. Add some value, let people know, maybe you're normally booked out for a month or two, but you know, hey, it's their lucky day. We can get you done in a couple of weeks, things like that.

Jon Bryant: Totally. That message about the holidays, it really resonates with people, I think. And again, this subject comes with like, levels of urgency. I think an email blast is number one. Like here's our message, here's what we're going out with. Number two might be a text. Hey, just wanted to check in. I think third level of urgency again is call. Hey, not sure if you saw, but we're trying to fill our schedule. And I think, you know, by doing that, you're going to, you're going to see results and also just know what the next step is. I think a lot of people struggle with that, you know, feeling overwhelmed with this feeling like of, of not having control and it's easy to just kind of, you know, sit back and feel sorry for the situation, but you've got to take control each one of those steps requires effort, but it's actually not that hard. The message again, it's the holidays coming up. Can we help you and move on, you know, step it up, rise to the occasion. So I would say for us, like that's what we're always telling our reps and, that seems to give them something to do each week. It's about action. So.

Michael Murray: Yeah. Again, it's, you know, do we, let's say we make a hundred calls. Do we expect that we're going to get a lot from that? No, probably not. But you know, it's that sense of control. We're taking action. We're moving forward and we might get one or two. And we never know when the one or two, one of those might be a big project that really helps to get us over the hump.

Jon Bryant: Have you tried carrier pigeons, by the way?

Michael Murray: I haven't, you know, I really, I got to look into that.

Jon Bryant: I'm telling you, I think people are going to respond. I think that's one area we haven't tried. It's going to get the response we're looking for.

Michael Murray: Yeah, interesting, interesting one. I, you know, one of the things we, we don't really talk about it before. And I know we're going to talk a little bit about referral partners in a minute, but ask past customers for referrals. I mean, again, somebody could talk so much about, and it's probably its own, you know, episode or whatever, but I think that's an opportunity here. You know, we're reaching out to past customers, say thanks. Hey, just want to say thanks. You know, we appreciate you having us out. We've got an opportunity here. If you need something done or do you know anybody that needs something done? Has anybody recently moved into your neighborhood? Oftentimes when somebody moves into the neighborhood, they're looking to get some painting work done. One of the things I've heard and learned in the past is when you're asking for referrals, ask for something specific. Don't just ask, like, who do you know that needs some painting done? That's really hard. But if I can ask, hey, who recently moved into your neighborhood? You know, things like that, it can activate the brain to go, oh, actually, you know, whatever. John and Susie down the street just moved in. You know, I don't know, they might need something done. Let me, I'll reach out to them and see.

Jon Bryant: Totally. Yeah, I think one thing that we saw work for us a couple of years ago was that when things were slow, we would reach out to past customers with an offer. And that would help us get in front of them a little bit. And the offer was, hey, we did your project two years ago. There's some touch ups. We're doing a free hour of, we're doing an hour of free touch-ups for any of our customers. That's just part of our warranty program. Would you have any interest? And that email generated about, I think it was 40 hours of touch-ups. They're individual touch-ups, they're annoying, but you'd be surprised at how many houses we went into where someone's like, actually, I need another room done. You know, I think it was something like 85%. And so it was a great loss leader for us just to get the guys moving. It was good training hours. It was a good time to actually be with your customers in a way that was really positive, you know, trying to sell them. We just know that life happens. So let's help you with that. So, you know, if you can find little creative ways like that to really benefit your customers, I think, I think when you think about the customer first, it shows versus I need something like I need work, I need work, I need work. Well, yeah, sure you do, but what can you do to help that person out and lead to, you know, that reciprocity effect that happens? So, so anyways.

Michael Murray: Yeah, yeah, one of my favorite quotes from Zig Ziglar is, you can get everything you want out of life if you're just willing to help enough other people get everything they want. And that's, yeah, that really reminds me of that. Yeah, give first. Yep, love it.

Jon Bryant: Exactly. Give first. Yeah. So cool. All right, man. Number three. Number three is an interesting one. I mean, we, you know, reaching out to referral partners. I think this was your, you know, a big thing for you. Talk about what you guys do. What is, how does this work? And, you know, what steps are you taking now when it's, when it's, when it's like this, when leads are low, what are you telling these people?

Michael Murray: Yeah, so I think, first of all, I think it's similar to what we just talked about, right? Like when we're asking for help, hopefully we've been contributing to that bank, if you will. We've been making those deposits throughout the year, providing others with referrals. We like to participate in our local BNI groups and things like that. So we've got referral partners with moving companies, flooring companies, realtors, other professionals in the area. And this time of year, we're going to lean on those relationships, especially, and let them, again, be honest, let them know, hey, we're slow, we're coming into our slow season. You know, this type of project is exactly what we're looking for. And if nothing else, it puts them or puts you at the top of their mind as they're out, you know, doing their thing. Again, we do really well with that. You know, especially this time of year and after the holidays. That's something that can be pretty significant.

Jon Bryant: Is there anything that, I think it's great. Like it's one of those things again, where you can take control of your business and do something that's an action item, which I think right now, what are the action items? Let's, customers as referral partners, when you're talking to a referral partner, what are you telling them? Like do you, obviously you're honest, but do you offer them anything or do you have a program for that? I mean, that's a whole other discussion, but is there any incentive for them to remind, to remember you at the end of the day? Do you guys do that?

Michael Murray: I would say not really. So, you know, again, like within our groups like BNI and stuff, it's usually a like, you know, somewhat equal relationship. I think the biggest thing that we try to do is provide referrals to our referral partners. So again, so when we, you know, come and say, hey, we really could use some help here. There is a, you know, a little bit of, I don't want to say obligation, but it's like, you know, they feel that sense of like, oh yeah, like, let me try to help you out here because you've been helping me out for a while. But we don't have like a formal program. You know, we've done some things in the past where we'll give out gift cards and things like that. And, you know, we still do that, but it's not a, I don't know, formal, like known thing, if you give me a referral, I'm going to give you a gift card. It's more of a like, hey, thanks. That was sweet. Here's a, you know, gift card to a local restaurant or something. How about you guys? What do you—

Jon Bryant: Right. We'll talk more about that later. Yeah. I think, you know, one thing I've taken from you is this, the gift card thing is interesting for introductions to new referral partners. You know, let them try you out, give them to a customer, give it to their mom, you know, a friend, use it, their own house, like whatever you want to do. I think that's really, really smart for introductions. I think to like referral partners, it comes down to fulfilling what they need to like, I think. I think of realtors in a lot of cases. I don't have much to give to realtors. I don't, I don't know that as a painting contractor we do, but they're such valuable, they can be such valuable resources. And so always rewarding them saying thank you, being generous and gracious, I think is expected. You need to do that. So don't forget to still appreciate your referral partners. And, you know, we've, you know, we use something called the referral tree, which is just like a concept of, you know, who are your referral partners and how are you watering that relationship and what are you doing and how are you reaching out? No more, so much value this time of year. It's like to see it visually and to really engage with that as to like, who did I not say thank you to recently? Who have I not appreciated? Who have I not connected with? You know, like it's really that, that plays a, it goes a long way, I think, at the end of the day.

Michael Murray: Yeah, I mean I think it goes back to what we were just talking about. I like, you know, that thought there is right, like sometimes it's just reaching out to say thanks as opposed to like asking for specific things. I do think there is a time and a place to ask. It actually just reminded me, a guy we both know, John, who owns Classic Painting in Columbus, Ohio. I was down there visiting with them, you know, probably around the holidays last year and they have this thing where they do like, it's like a full paint can full of local homemade cookies. And they've got like the wrap on there with their logo. And you know, the owner and the sales rep and a couple other people, they have a list of I don't know, let's say 50 people, past clients and referral partners and people like that, and they drive around and they're just going, they say hi, you know, they go to the door, and you know, whatever, give them a thing of cookies. They say that it's like one of the best things they do, they get a ton of referrals and leads from this. And it's like it's gotten to the point where if they don't bring somebody their cookies, they're calling them up like hey, we haven't seen you guys. We're waiting for our cookies here, and they're pretty good. I'll be honest with you. I may have had one or two when I was down there. Yeah, so, yeah, you know, I'll be honest. But so yeah—

Jon Bryant: They must be good. Yeah. We're getting those kind of requests. If you're getting cookies from me, they're going to be burnt and probably stale, no, no further requests. Yeah. They have to wonder whether it was like a personal attack at the end of the day, if I give them cookies. So we'll keep looking at cookies.

Michael Murray: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, no, I'll eat. I'll talk. I'll partake in the eating of the cookies. And yeah, but I don't want to be part of the baking. So but yeah, anyway, so I mean, that might be a, you know, that might give somebody a good excuse, though, right, just to go and say thanks and, you know, whatever, see them in person and stuff.

Jon Bryant: Totally. That's what it is. You shouldn't need an excuse, but at the end of the day, there's lots of people we haven't thanked. And to just, to go out with that kind of like, I may have forgotten to thank you, but I don't, we don't, we don't want to take you for granted. It's a great thing to do at this time of year. So, cool. Well, let's let the overview of all this continue. Let's move on to number four. And number four, you know, it's that immediate return marketing. So, yeah, when we talk about that, you know, immediate return marketing, what's coming to mind for you?

Michael Murray: Yeah, yeah, I think we're starting to get down to it now. Right. So, you know, these are, when we think, when most people are thinking about like, how do I get more leads? They're thinking about marketing. They're thinking about like, where should I put my money? What should, you know, Google and Facebook and this, that, and the other thing. And, you know, TikTok or whatever, all the fun, the cool kids are doing. Right. So, you know, not me. We do like some branding stuff, right? So we, do some TV commercials. We've tried some radio commercials for us. You know, for us, they didn't work great. I know we both have friends that do billboards and different things like that. Those can be great things. I don't think that is where we should be focused this time of year. I think we need to be focused on what's going to get the phone to ring as soon as possible. I think it's going to be go where people are looking. So the first thing is going to be Google.

Jon Bryant: So what fits that category? When you think about this.

Michael Murray: Yeah, there's, let's hang out here for a minute. I think there's a lot of different parts of Google. But when somebody is looking for a painting company and they don't have a, you know, referral or their favorite painter yet, they're going to go to Google and look for, you know, painters near me type searches. I think, you know, Google ads can work. What we have seen at Textbook is Google ads are becoming more and more expensive and are working less and less throughout this year, but even over the last couple of years. It's becoming more and more of a struggle, but especially this year. I know you guys do some Google ads. What are your thoughts on that?

Jon Bryant: They're great, but it really depends on who's managing it in their expertise level. We've got it really dialed in and we have for years and the person we have is really good, but that's hard to find. It's very difficult to find. And so, but outside of ads, I mean, Google ads work for some businesses, not for others. Like you're saying, there is other elements of Google that you can be focused on, especially when things are slow. Like, you know, local service ads, I think is a big one. What are some other areas that come to your mind?

Michael Murray: Yeah, I mean, I think the local service ads, we were talking about that before, you know, especially for the businesses in the United States, there's still a lot of painting companies that are taking advantage of that. It's relatively new. This is where Google wants us to be. You know, it is like the top search result. When you're on most searches, it's the first thing that you're going to see when looking for painters in the area. It can be a little confusing. I don't want to, we can do a deep dive on this maybe in the future or whatever, but it's not that complicated. Local businesses they'll have to sign up under the handyman category. But then once you do that, you don't have to accept all the different service types. You don't have to go fix people's plumbing issues and things like that. You can select interior and exterior painting or just one of them if you want. And those are the only things that Google is going to show you for. The business owner, some of the people in the business have to go through a background check. And yeah, it's great. I mean, Google actually guarantees, I think it's up to $2,000 for homeowners or for the client if there is an issue. So there is like some more significant legitimacy to the whole thing. It's really Google's answer to Home Advisor and Angie and some of those companies that have really built, you know, humongous brands off of Google. And you know, it's got what it is. Google wants to get in on that and start making some money. And, and right now, since it's still relatively new, it's pretty cheap. It's one of our best marketing sources this year. And businesses that aren't taking advantage of it should really look into it.

Jon Bryant: So yeah, being from Canada, we don't have this available to us right now. It's available for other industries. It's not the handyman or painting element. The question I have for you is somebody who's feeling it right now that stress, like how long does this take to set up if you're not on it?

Michael Murray: I mean, I think it's pretty quick. You know, the background check does take a little bit of time. I don't, it's, you know, it has been a little while since we set it up. So I don't want to misspeak, but I remember it being like weeks more, you know, it's weeks, not months. So was it two weeks or three weeks, something in there? You know, obviously it's up to the business owner to get all their stuff turned in. You know, you have to prove that you're legally allowed to do business, you know, send them like the insurance form and, you know, registration form and stuff like that. But it's all relatively easy to do. Yeah, not too complicated.

Jon Bryant: Okay, so something that you could get up and going in next couple of weeks kind of thing. Cool. Yeah.

Michael Murray: For sure. Yeah. Yep. And Google's constantly tweaking it. You know, I saw that there was a big update to that program, even like within the last week or two. And so, yeah, this stuff's changing quickly. Even if it's not, you know, going to get you leads this month, it's going to help you next month. You know, that famous phrase or whatever, like the best time to have planted the tree was 10 years ago. The next best time is today. And it's, you know, I think it's very relevant there, definitely something I think that's one of the big if anybody listening to this is not on local service ads that would be one of the big action items that go do that today go do that this weekend as soon as possible.

Jon Bryant: Start that up. So if you, I think the other areas too, like, you know, Google services, like making sure your services are all up, making sure you've got images, making sure that your Google My Business account is really rocking that it has the information it needs. Those types of things are, you know, I keep coming back to this. It's just like, what can you do now? Get that on your list of to-dos go and make that happen. It's a couple hours. It's not going to, it's not going to maybe generate per se a result immediately, but these are things that like set you up for success in a week or two and it should be all done. And so if it's a little slow, put that on the list of things to do. Anything else you'd add there?

Michael Murray: Yeah, I mean, get reviews, right? Anything on that Google business profile is huge. You know, there's a lot, I mean, I like to, it's one of these things that I really like to geek out on and study is Google business profile because it's done well, it really is free. It can be a huge driver to our businesses. The, you know, there's a lot of, stuff I've read that, you know, there's a lot of parts of your business profile that don't help you to rank better, but they do help you to convert better. So when somebody sees your profile, having those great photos and having the full profile, questions on there, different things like that, are all going to help you convert better. And that's a big part of this, right? There's fewer people looking for our services. So if somebody clicks on our profile, let's make sure that they actually give us a call or go to the website or whatever action item we want them to take. Yep.

Jon Bryant: Totally. Hey, quick question for you. And I don't have any experience with this and I don't, we didn't talk about this beforehand or not, but you mentioned Angie's list, you mentioned like home advisor, have you used this stuff? Like, is that also a good place to go? Or like, I see a lot of questions online about it. So I, I'm not sure.

Michael Murray: Yeah. Yeah, so we have used it. You know, I mean, Angie's list less so. You know, now Angie owns Home Advisor is all one big, you know, thing. Happy family. Kind of like the mafia. So yeah, I don't know. It's one of those things where, you know, I think the mafia is probably a good analogy here. I'm not a fan. It's a pretty, I don't know, bad business model, but it can serve a purpose. I mean, I do think in, in short term, you know, it's, it's almost like, I don't know, medicine or something where it's like, man, I don't want to have to take medicine forever, but hey, I've got an acute problem. I need some leads this month. I think it's, I think it would be, you know, prideful as a business owner. If I'm saying like, no, just something that could help my business. I'm going to be honest with you. It's like, it's not, I hope I don't have to get there. I don't like giving them my money. And because ultimately when I give them my money, I'm then competing with them for Google ads and, you know, SEO and all of the things that I'm spending my other money on. So that's the challenge.

Jon Bryant: Yeah, I think it's, I mean, my feeling on it has always been that it's been, immediately lumps me in with every competitor out there who's also doing the same thing, versus Google ads where you have a bit more control of spend and that kind of thing to be, you know, stand out. But again, I don't have experience, so thanks for sharing. I mean, I think there's a lot of people out there that would be curious, especially at this time of year, being like, what do these leads look like? Are they quality? We don't know. I mean, are you getting, were they quality for you when you did it?

Michael Murray: I think some are, I mean, I'll be like, yeah, we both worked from it. You know, but that is part of the issue is, you know, you're definitely going to get leads. Much of it is not great quality. But you know, at this time of year, if you, you know, are desperate, let's say, or whatever, you know, we're starting to get desperate, you know, I'm going to take a couple of bad leads if it means I'm going to get a good lead. You know, and sometimes you have to do that. So, yeah, I do think it is an opportunity. I do think though that there are, again, serious concerns about the types of clients that might be on there. I don't think you can paint it with a broad brush and just say like everybody on Home Advisor is a low price shopper, but I do think that in general, that is maybe the majority of it. But I think there are ideal customers that want to pay top dollar that are looking on there as well.

Jon Bryant: Interesting. Cool. Well, I think let's move on to number five. Point five. Door to door. Worth it? Not worth it?

Michael Murray: It's cold out. That's the first thing. If you live in Florida, I just assume you just go to the beach or something. I don't know.

Jon Bryant: Yeah, as a guy from Canada and a guy from Cleveland, I mean, your door to door is not fun, but is it worth it? Is it effective? I don't know. I mean, what do you think?

Michael Murray: Yeah. I mean, so I've done a lot of door to door, especially when I was first getting started and you know, when I was in college, used to door to door all time and probably the first five or six years after college running the business. And you know, as somebody who's kind of a self professed, introvert, it's, you know, not easy. But again, I don't know. It's as a business owner, like we often are doing things that we don't want to do because we have to. Door to door works. You know, it is a good way to get leads. There are ways to do it well, and there's ways to do it poorly. You know, again, it's a big topic. You know, I would say somebody that hasn't done it should just try to study a little bit. Like, you know, what are the approaches and how might you be more effective with that? You know, you got to be to the point. You got to be, you know, you can't just, if you can knock on somebody's door or just like, hi, how are you? Get to the point. But yeah, I think it can work.

Jon Bryant: Yeah. Right. Like, I mean, yeah, it can work. I mean, at this time of year, like, I think the biggest thing is like, like I've said before, it's about taking control of your business and understanding where you have an action item in front of you that may lead to the next job and keeping your team employed and keeping your business running. I think every business owner, that's the ultimate fear is like, I might be on a cliff at the end of next week after let everybody go. So if you don't want to do that and maybe, you know, you want to push yourself a bit, this, this is an action item. Obviously, you know, hopefully those other ones that are a little bit higher are going to be, able to get you what you need. But this one here, like if you're rep, if you have a sales rep or even yourself, you sell a job, you're, when you're going to start work on that job, go around to the 20 houses around you. I mean, it's a basic concept, but at the end of the day, it's an action item that you can do that might get you that next job and push this out a bit. And so I think one of the big things today is to examine this stuff and be like, look, it's not comfortable, it's not easy, you'll have to learn it. But man, when times get tough, the tough get going, right? At least I think someone said, is that Arnold Schwarzenegger? I don't know who said that, but anyways, it sounds like about the guy who said something like that.

Michael Murray: Yeah. Somebody tough said that. I mean, I like that idea, right? It's like, you know, you can go door to door when you're just going out for hours and, you know, walk around neighborhoods. And again, I've done that. But I do like the idea, you know, especially when it's cold out, it's like, can you just go to some of the neighbors, right? Go to five to 10 neighbors on each side of the house you're painting. And you know, maybe it's whatever day two or three, and you know, the project's going well. Hey, you've seen our truck and your neighbors drive over there the last few days. You know, we're doing a big painting project over there. Just wonder if you guys have any projects coming up. We actually have some great pricing this time of year because we're a little bit slower. It's not going to hurt, right? And you know, have a, and they say, no, we're not interested. Have a little, you know, postcard or flyer or something to leave. You know, again, we would find, when we used to do this, we would get about one lead an hour on average. And they closed decently well. They are easier to sign up for, so there's a little bit less friction there. Somebody can say, sure, give me a quote. What does it hurt, right? No obligation, right? So generally we found that those might close out a little bit lower percentage than somebody who had called us. But again, it's going to give you some control, give you some action. And I would encourage, you know, get your painters out there and like get the crew. There's no reason that, you know, the owner should have to go and do this all by themselves. Kind of that, you know, many hands make for a little work idea. Like, hey, if we all go knock on five doors and there's four of us, it's like, hey, we just hit 20. And if we can do that at every project, we're going to get something from it. It doesn't take more than 10 to 15 minutes to go knock on five doors.

Jon Bryant: Totally. And if you can present it as something fun to do too, I mean, like, let's just go get this done quick. This is five doors. You know, after that, we'll, you know, go hang out. I don't know what the reward is really there, but at least, you know, be upbeat about it and excited. And like, you know, this is something that's not weird at the end of the day. Sure. Yeah.

Michael Murray: Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, making a competition. I mean, we used to do, you know, competitions around this. You know, one of my favorite was, you know, we would have like dinner and whoever got the most leads, you know, got to have the steak dinner and anybody, whoever didn't get the most leads, everybody else got to have like the hot dog dinner. And, you know, we'd have a lot, we'd take some fun pictures and, you know, when you're the guy eating that big, you know, whatever, T-bone steak and everybody else has to eat their hot dog. You're feeling pretty good about yourself. It's amazing how competitive people can get with stuff like that. Yeah.

Jon Bryant: Love that. That's hilarious. So. That's amazing. I guess the one thing I'll say too about all this is that, you know, in my experience, it's as much about getting that local branding down as well. So making sure the signs out this time of year, making sure if you have a door hanger or something to put on the doors around, it's there. That the van or vehicle you're driving is out front, prominently displayed, hopefully clean, you know, no one likes to see the side all dirty over your logo. Those things all matter, right? Making sure you're following your systems and showing up ready to let the people know you're there. Get the trumpets out, you know? And so it plays with that. It's like, you know, did you see our sign, our truck, our flag? Did you see the banner we left off Miss Joan's house? Like, we were, we're there and we're doing a good job and she loves us. And, and that, that makes the conversation easier. And, you know, then people know you're in the area, which helps for trust too, I think. So that's the only thing I'd probably add there. Make sure it's cohesive and consistent. But I think you said it best too, like, you know, looking at each job, like turning one into three, like how do we get this next, get the next three customers from each job? And like, there's a process to that. There's a system and I don't think it's impossible. I think it's very real that we can do that if we try, if we watch for it. And put forth an effort.

Michael Murray: Yep. Yeah. And I think it's one of those things that it's like, it takes consistency. You know, you, you go knock on doors for an hour and you might not get anybody that's interested. You might not get anybody home. You know, and it's like, it's easy to give up. But this stuff does work. And you know, it's like the next hour you might get two and then the next hour you get none. And then the next hour you get one and then three. And it's like, it's, it is, it's one of these things that if you put in the effort, the results do follow. They're, they might not be immediate, immediate. Yeah.

Jon Bryant: Right. Yeah, cool. Okay. Well, let's, let's move on to, number six, number six of nine. We do have nine. So it's, that's good. So we've got four more. All right. So number six, you know, there's things that cost a lot of money. There's also things that are, are free or cheap. And I think we've talked a few of them already about them already in terms of like, just your Google ads and all that kind of stuff. You had mentioned Facebook community groups. You want to talk a little bit about that?

Michael Murray: Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, we're talking, going door to door. We're talking about the neighborhoods. You know, one of the things that we in our society now use, you know, to kind of keep in touch with our neighborhoods and local communities is these community groups. You know, even like the next door app, right? Stuff like that. But these Facebook community groups have been really beneficial for us over the years. You know, we try to be involved in these, but we also try to encourage our clients, friends, family to keep an eye out. Oftentimes now when somebody's looking for a painter, that's where they go. They go to these Facebook community groups and put something in, hey, does anybody know a good painter? Anybody know a good plumber? Whatever it might be. And showing up there as the business owner, I think that's amazing. I love to try to participate. I generally try to not spend a whole lot of time on Facebook. But when I am on there, it's like, that's what I'm looking for. If anybody's, you know, in my local community or, you know, things like that, are looking for a painting company, I want to show up. I want to say, hey, I'm the owner. I live in the area. I would love to come over and meet with you, talk with you about your project. It's nice too, because there's actually a search function within that, you know, within Facebook, within those community groups, or you can go and search for phrases like painter and find, you know, people that are looking for that. And maybe it was a week ago or something. They're probably still, you know, open to getting a quote from you. So that's something that's been big for us. Do you guys do anything with that kind of stuff?

Jon Bryant: Cool. All right. You know, we really don't. And I love hearing you talk about it because it makes so much sense. I think that there's a huge value in this and having reps on our team who are a little slower this year, giving them some type of direction and seeing them run with it is just so important. So to put somebody on Facebook community groups, and be like, check this out, take a couple hours, be proactively seeing how this might impact your business. I mean, it seems so smart. So I think it's something we'll, I appreciate you sharing with me. I think that's a great idea. Yeah.

Michael Murray: Yeah. I think you can, you know, I think there, there is a way to like as a business owner, again, it goes back to this, like, you know, how aggressive should we be? You can post on there like, hey, my name is Michael and I'm the owner of Textbook Painting and we're, you know, we're slow and whatever. I think you want to be careful, right? People aren't in these community groups to be sold to. But again, I do think that you can do that. I would encourage somebody to not do that when they join a group. But maybe after you've been in it for a while and you've been contributing in other ways, you don't have to just answer questions about painting. Maybe somebody's whatever, looking for a good restaurant recommendation and jump in, right? That's what these community groups are all about. But yeah, there's a lot of personal and professional value that can come from—

Jon Bryant: Great. Cool. Let's move on to number seven. All right, I mean, we've got, where do we buy our paint? The vendors, right? Paint vendors, sales reps for paint companies, other service providers. This is another action item you can do today, right? You can get in touch with those people and talk to them. In your experience, what are you talking to them about?

Michael Murray: Yeah, I mean, you know, if we're slow, our paint vendors are hurting, right? We're not buying as much paint. And so I think again, it's being honest, let them know, like, hey, just giving you a heads up, like things are looking a little slow for December. You know, please keep us in mind. If you know, you have anybody that's looking for a, you know, painter, we'd love that referral a lot, a good amount of, homeowners, but especially commercial projects actually do flow through the paint vendors. And they can provide their contractors with referrals and get you in on some of those bids. But if they don't know that you're looking, they don't know that you maybe have availability in your schedule, they're not going to do it. And remember, they've got a lot of painting contractors. Most of them are proactive and talking to their reps. Most of the time, we only reach out to the reps when we've got a paint problem. This might be a good opportunity to show up to the paint store with a dozen donuts for the team that's working at the local store. And just say, hey, if you guys come across anybody that's looking for a painter, we've got some time in our schedule here the next month. We'd love to give those people a bid.

Jon Bryant: Totally. Yeah, it's super, super smart. It's an action item for sure. I know that a lot of times now, like, you know, the paint suppliers also have designers, and they're trying to help people with color. I think those people are worth reaching out to as well. And so much of it has been top of mind right like, you know, they deal with hundreds, thousands of contractors in your area, probably, my area too. And relationships matter, right? Like if somebody says to your paint rep, hey, do you know any painters? What's their mind doing? Like it's probably like, do I know painters? I know hundreds. And so, oh, I really like Michael though. Like he's a good dude and I appreciate him. And he brought us donuts. And so we should, I'm going to just give him a call. Maybe this is a fit, maybe it's not right. Like, and so that's, that's so important. These activities like, you know, John, who you're mentioning or, you know, other companies that I've been talking to and, you know, it's just about activity. This time of year is about activity, the right activity, connecting networking. And these are things, this, this particular person is one that people forget about a lot that has a lot of knowledge and it's going to get asked a lot about painting, especially by the person who doesn't know how this all works, right? I need to get some painting done, they go into the store. Hey, I just need a couple of gallons. Oh, what are you doing? Oh, I'm painting my 4,000 square foot house. Oh, you think four gallons is going to be enough? Oh, maybe not. Do you think I should hire someone? Yeah. They are the source of those people and can connect someone to a professional. So anyways, I think it's super smart. Any other vendors that you found has been effective?

Michael Murray: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. That's the main thing that comes to mind. Is there anything else that you're thinking of?

Jon Bryant: I mean, I think we mentioned it earlier, there's other partners that make sense. Now I don't know if we're going to talk about this after. Let me see. Yeah, so things like electrical plumbing that do have an impact on homes, windows, for example. You know, these are emergency type, the window's not so much, but electrical and plumbing can be emergency situations. And usually they leave you with a bit of a drywall painting issue at the end. Plumbers aren't afraid to cut some drywall and get when it's to get done. So I do think it's an opportunity to build your network amongst other providers that actually, you know, are going to need someone to refer. It's not, yeah. Have you had success with that at all or good partnerships?

Michael Murray: Yeah, I think there's, yeah, I mean, yeah, I think, you know, talked about before, like the BNI relationships and stuff. You know, one thing that comes to mind just as you're talking about that is, you know, we often hear from our insurance agent and, you know, different people like that this time of year, as, you know, renewals come up and things. And again, like the more we can let people in our community know that, you know, hey, we've got, you know, good pricing this time of year, we got good availability. You know, if you need something done quick, we can help. You know, it might not seem obvious, but your insurance agent is probably meeting with hundreds of clients this time of year and thanking them for their business and doing all these things that we're talking about. And so they might come across somebody who just moved into a new office or is about to move into a new house or whatever. And just keeping you top of mind because you had just mentioned last week that you've got some availability. You never know. You never know what might come from that.

Jon Bryant: Totally, totally cool. All right, we got two more, two more really exciting ones here. Now this one here is, there's a bunch of people out there that need work done now. And there, I think as a painting contractor, that is sometimes not obvious of who those might be. I know sometimes in years past I've sat back being like, man, we need a job now, where do we go? And, you know, over the years, it's become a little more clear, as to who those people are. I think this time of year, especially when it's slow, there's, there's people out there with a need. And the two that come to mind for me are, residential real estate agents that have listings now. Now is not a great time because real estate is pretty hot in North America, but, you know, in, in years past when the market's been a bit slower, reaching out to them and saying, hey, look, you have a listing. Any interest in getting it painted? Good lead in, especially for a relationship, but also they might, like it might be a good idea for their client. And the second one is, there's a lot of businesses out there who have December 31st year ends, they're looking for write-offs, they're looking for maintenance on their properties. I mean, as a business owner, Mike, when do you start thinking about write-offs? You think about it all year or when does it hit you?

Michael Murray: No, usually as we head into December there, for sure.

Jon Bryant: Yeah, it started in December and you started thinking, man, I got to spend some money. I got to bring down these taxes. It's been a pretty effective strategy to reach out to, you know, maintenance managers, CFOs in some cases manage this stuff as well. Using LinkedIn with the urgency of like, hey, you probably have write-offs and guess what we can help you. Write-offs needed, I guess. So, we've seen that to be an effective strategy too. Have you, have you, do you have experience with this at all?

Michael Murray: No, not really. I mean, to be honest, you know, as we were talking about pre-call, it's like, those were new things for me. Generally speaking. I mean, we've done work for commercial, you know, clients, like you're talking about end of year. But it wasn't something where we were very proactive and, you know, reaching out with that thought. So I love that. And I especially love the real estate. You know, you can easily go on, you know, Zillow, realtor.com and see how long a listing's been up. And you're right. Most listings are barely up. It's like a day or two and houses are selling for way too much money. But you know, there probably are some houses still that are sitting for weeks, or maybe a month plus and you know, quick, maybe, you know, on this grand scale of things like relatively inexpensive paint job on the inside could make all the difference in getting that house sold. So I love that. I think that's a great thing. You know, and again, like you reach out to 10 or 20, something good's going to come from it. I think that's something that we can put into play right away.

Jon Bryant: Yeah. Cool. Well, yeah, that's kind of my experience has been those two have been effective. And, you know, again, just, it takes those actions, picking up the call. In this case, you actually have a number, you have a contact person. Real estate agents are fantastic at picking up the phone typically. So.

Michael Murray: Yeah, that's how they make money. Make sense? Yeah.

Jon Bryant: That's how they make money, right? So, you know, you can't, and at the end of the day, what's the saying, you can't make an omelet if you don't break a few eggs. Like you got to, you got to kind of get out there, really try a little bit. I don't know if that's how, does that saying actually apply here? I don't know, but anyways, it is that time of the day, isn't it? So, all right. So the last point we have here is, it's just overall like, you know, spend more money on marketing. But—

Michael Murray: Yeah, I mean, I think that's, you know, we wanted to end this conversation. You know, you and I were like, hey, you know, I think the big question that business owners have is like, should I be spending more? Should I be cutting back? Right? Man, times are getting tough. I see the revenue going down. You know, I'm holding onto this little bit of cash I have right now. Should I be spending it? How should I be thinking about marketing spend this time of year? What are your thoughts?

Jon Bryant: Man, I've heard some really smart people talk about this for their business and it's resonated with me, which is that this time of year is for me personally, and there's going to be debate about this for sure, but use the bulk of your budget this time of year. Summer, you know, I don't know what your experience is, but we're always like swamped. We've always been swamped. And so when you, when you think about distributing your budget, it's like, why am I going to spend evenly in July? What I spend in December when I'm stressing out, maybe December is a bad example because spending money in December on marketing is a, well, there's a lot of competition for that, but, let's call it January, February, March, or November, you know, like these times of year, and those people have got me really thinking about that critically to be like, you know, why don't I spend, why don't we spend 90% of our budget over the slow months and 10% of our budget in the busy months and rely on those like free or built up, you know, avenues like SEO or signs or when things are hot, you know, don't use it, use your branding more. Whereas now we need to be really spending the money to to be at our competition. What do you think?

Michael Murray: Yeah. Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, I think it's, you know, marketing is an investment. I think if you have marketing is working well, it's going to come back. But it is scary. I mean, it's absolutely scary. Demand is down, right? Like, let's call it what it is. Demand right now is down in North America. I think, for these types of services, everybody's local city and community is affected differently. But I think I think we're pretty safe to say demand is down. Demand is always down this time of year compared to maybe spring and summer in our industry. And so it's scary. And I think the easy kind of like natural tendency is to pull in the purse strings a little bit and spend less. The nice thing though I think is that everyone else is doing that. In general, there's less competition maybe on Google ads or some of the other things that we might spend our marketing money on, which is good, because that money then can go a little bit further this time of year. The challenge is there's fewer people looking. There's less people that are going to be clicking on your ads on Google, which in general should mean that you're spending less. But my philosophy, just like yours, now's a good time to be spending that money. We do try to save it up, kind of build up a war chest throughout the summer and in the fall. You know, it's something that we talk a lot with our team, you know, usually starting in August through kind of like Halloween, you know, we do this big war on winter push and we're, you know, really pushing people to work over time and get projects done. And, you know, the way that we explain it is like every project that we get done gives us a little bit more money that we can put into that marketing war chest. So we can spend that in November, you know, mostly January, February. We do try to skip December just to make sure that we keep everybody as busy as possible. So, yeah, I agree.

Jon Bryant: Yeah. Now I think there's, you know, with, with that discussion, there's also, stages to this as well, right? Like you, you know, I, I talk for me, we're talking about consistency. And I think in the summer, we lose the consistency going back to that first point of like, you know, summer wasn't, it isn't too hard on us. It's more of a production issue, right? Like how do we get the work done? How do we, you know, not, not have a staffing, it's a staffing issue. And I think we lose that consistency of marketing a little bit, where it's like, I've got all this work, I don't really need more work, so I'm going to stop that. I think, you know, when I talk about like shifting the budget, it doesn't mean that we stop, it just means that we understand the process of our business. So like the ebbs and flows and the seasonality and that like, we need to be a few months ahead of this issue. And I think for so many of us, that's really hard because we deal with the here and now. And I've heard you say it too, Mike, like a lot of times this business feels like a knife fight. It's like an alley trying to just stay alive. And so to get three months ahead is a real challenge. And so we hit this wall, we hit this time where things are slow and you look back and you're like, what was I doing three months ago? Like, we've always found that marketing takes 60 to 90 days to really be effective. And what was I doing three months ago? Oh, not much. Okay, well let's try to change that pattern of behavior. Get ahead of it. Start that span, that war on winter that you're talking about, so that this doesn't happen next year. And I think that's a good kind of place to end this whole discussion, is that this feeling sucks. If you're going through this right now, like you and I both have experienced this, like not having work is probably the worst part of the business itself. Like sales, I've heard it said before, sales solves everything. And you can, when you don't have it, you panic, you don't feel great. It feels like the world is ending. You know, like I've talked about it before, like the cliff it's like, by next week, we got to let all these people go. It's stressful. And I forget that consistency and budget and being proactive, watching the numbers plays a major role in our success. And it's not just going to happen without action, without taking action, being consistent, looking at those things that are ahead of us and saying like, we're going to get through this. Here's the 10 action points we're taking in order. Like kind of like you're in a war, we'll start soft and move to like the big cannons here. And so, yeah, I think there's a way through this. And it's important to remember this pain for next year. Ultimately. I don't know, I've been rambling now. What do you think about that?

Michael Murray: 100% agree, yeah, I mean, I was going to say the same thing. We talked about at the beginning, it's taken action. You mentioned that a minute ago. I think that's the big thing, is now is not the time of year to relax, if you will. I used to think that, I used to remember, as a younger, in multiple ways, business owner, people would, like I would think like, oh man, once we get to the slow season, we're going to get all these projects done. I'm not going to have to, I'm not going to be so busy. You know, we're going to work on all this other stuff. And you know, what I've realized is that now it's the busy season. As a marketing, as like marketing and sales focused person, you know, whether, you know, as a business owner, that's what I'm focused on as a sales rep or whatever your role might be. Like this is the busy season. Yeah, you might have fewer bids to go on. But you need to be busier this time of year. Now, in my opinion, is not the time of year to, you know, kind of play on your heels or whatever. Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong, right? We got Thanksgiving coming up. I'm going to take a couple days off and, you know, take a little bit of time off around Christmas because there's, you know, there's, there's only so much we can do, right? You know, we're not knocking on doors on Christmas Eve. You know, things like that. Let's not be ridiculous here. But you know, as we get into January, it's, it's go time. It is action time. And then when we get to the summer, everybody else is busy around here. And that's usually when I'm honestly, you know, working a little bit less. I'm going to take a Friday off in the summer. You know, maybe a lot of Fridays off in the summer, but when it gets to winter, it's like, you're going to find me working my butt off on a Saturday, you know, doing marketing activities and doing anything I can to make sure that our team is busy. And I think, you know, I always feel better when I'm taking action. I know a lot of times it doesn't work, but at least I feel like there's a possibility of something good happening.

Jon Bryant: Totally, totally. Yeah, love it. So let's maybe just recap this for everybody who's listening. You know, the nine things they can. Yeah, what do you get? You get to have a great Thanksgiving with Michael's family. There you go, yeah, awesome. All right, so number one, you know, follow up on all past bids, get an answer no matter what. Number two, call, email, carrier pigeon past customers. The holidays are coming, let's make it urgent. Number three, reach out to referral partners. Be honest with them, we're slow right now. Don't let your pride get in the way. Number four, let's look at immediate return marketing. So cut the market, branding focused. Google ads, Facebook ads, flyers out, door to door. And number five is door to door, which is, you know, go to the 20 homes around it, make sure you're present. Let's turn the job into another two or three. Number six, let's dial in the free cheap stuff. So make sure your Google profile is set up nicely and you're involved in your community, whether it's Facebook or outside. Number seven, talk to your vendors and other service providers, network with them. And number eight, let's reach out to people need work now. Number nine, let's evaluate our spending on marketing, do what you feel is comfortable for you, but understand that action at this point is the most important thing you can do for your business to take back control and feel like you're in the driver's seat. So that's our nine things. It's probably not all inclusive of everything you can be doing, but we hope that gives you a good start to start moving on something today. So yeah, sweet. That's about it.

Michael Murray: Yeah, man, spring will be here before we know it. You know, we're going to get through this. We do every year. You know, it's a slower time and, you know, I think in the economy and, you know, good times are ahead, but, you know, we got to stay positive. Got to keep working, keep moving forward.

Jon Bryant: Love it. Sweet, all right. Take it easy. Have a good day.

Michael Murray: Good stuff. All right, see you then.