How High-End Painting Contractors Sell Value (Not Paint) // Zach Kenney

Michael Murray: Hey everyone, welcome back to the Price Sell Paint podcast. I am Michael Murray, joined as always by Jon Bryant. But today we have a special guest, Zach Kenney of ZK Painting. Zach, tell us a little bit more about yourself. There are a lot of people in our industry who are very familiar with you and all the awesome things that you're doing, but there's probably someone listening who doesn't know about you yet. Give us a little bit of your background and your involvement in the industry.

Zach Kenney: I'm a lifelong contractor. I started painting when I was probably 14 or 15. I always loved the craft — I was a craftsman first and a business person second. I was pretty unemployable at one point. I went out on my own and started selling paint jobs, selling my hourly efforts for $15 an hour. If you paid me to do it, I'd do anything. Then I started bidding jobs and didn't file taxes or make any money for the first eight years. I pawned tools a number of times to make cash payroll and barely squeaked by a living for a very long time.

Eventually, I found social media, then found the PCA, learned about business, and had a large increase in demand. I've since grown a painting business, made money, and learned a lot. I've tried and failed at a rate that's probably not very normal. At the end of the day, I have a great little business now serving high-end clientele in the greater Boston area. I get to work on lots of other things, spend time with my family, and I'm passionate about educating people about the things I wish I knew during those eight years of just being broke.

Michael Murray: I love it. I can resonate with a lot of that — I know what it's like to not be able to make payroll with a few hours to spare. It sounds like things have changed since those $15-an-hour days. Jon and I are both passionate about how important it is to charge what you're worth. I'd love to hear more about that journey, because there's a lot there. There's a lot of personal work we have to do on ourselves to build the confidence to charge appropriately, as well as the spreadsheet work to understand what that actually looks like. Talk about how that transition happened for you.

Zach Kenney: For most of that time, it was almost like begging. When it came to doing an estimate, I was thinking, "Please, I need this. If you don't give me something to do, I'll have nothing." That was the reality for quite a while.

But I vividly remember a shift — the first of a few. I was drowning in work in the middle of a summer, deep into a big project and feeling overwhelmed, when I got a call from a client. They had been referred by a guy I used to work with at a restaurant. They sounded nice, but I was just overwhelmed and told them I couldn't even come look at it for two weeks. They said okay, they'd wait.

When I went out to the house, it was beautiful — on the water, really nice people. It felt like my life's work had culminated in knowing how to take care of this property in a way that a lot of people might not have. I went home and did the estimate. I think it came to around $22,000, and I remember just doubling the number. I thought, "They're not going to call anybody else. I'm the guy. They would pay me $42,000 to do this job."

And they did. They became lifelong clients — I just did a project with them about two years ago, seven years later. It was an epiphany. I realized it was about value. These people trusted me, and in hindsight, at $42,000, I'm sure I over-delivered and didn't make any money. But at least I saw it — this isn't a begging mindset. I'm delivering real value here, and maybe I shouldn't be scraping by to do it.

That just grew over time. Eventually, the demand side of things got crazy. I was selling $40,000 and $80,000 jobs and still losing money because I was over-delivering. So I kept raising prices, trying to figure out how to actually make money. Then I started job costing, looked at what things actually cost, and did a lot of work on myself — recognizing that I've spent my life in this, I've invested time and money into equipment, and I should probably make a living. That's the trajectory.

But I think it's very much a psychology thing. I talked to somebody just yesterday who posted something like, "I want to do well, but I also don't want to take advantage of anybody." And what I always say is: my job is to charge the most amount that the client is happy paying and will hire me again.

Jon Bryant: That whole journey is interesting, because you were able to make a transition from a scarcity mindset to one where you provide value, and that's a good equation for everyone. That person who thinks they're taking advantage of someone — why? What is it about your relationship with money that makes you feel that way? Is it because you make a profit? Is it because you fundamentally don't think you're worth more than $35 an hour? There are a lot of self-reflective questions to be thinking about here. Michael and I talk about this a lot — our relationship with money growing up and how we sold is all connected. When you provide great value and people pay a price where they feel they got tremendous value, everyone wins. To give people some context: where are you now in terms of your thinking on pricing?

Zach Kenney: That same job today would easily be $100K. Today, we are an easy button and we are safe. People are paying a premium for predictability. My clients are a group of people for whom $40,000 is not a huge amount of money in the scheme of things. They're smart people — they don't waste money — but it's all relative. I've come to understand that my target demographic really values their mental energy. By hiring me, they can offload a ton of worry: Is it going to be done right? Is it going to happen on time? Who's going to be in my house? My clients value that peace of mind.

Our charge rate isn't necessarily higher than a standard house painter in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Our scope of work is just typically a lot more detailed.

Michael Murray: That's exactly what I'm picking up on — it's a different value proposition as much as anything else. There's someone in your market charging $65 an hour and painting a bedroom for $500, and there's a customer for that person, and then there's a customer for what you're doing. To think one is right and the other is wrong is short-sighted. You're providing exactly what that person paying $100,000 is asking for — so they leave satisfied, they write great reviews, and they do all the right things. That's the most important part.

Zach Kenney: I always say it the same way: we're just aligning budget and expectation. That's it. I just talked to a client in Atlanta who found us on social media and wants to do a bunch of high-gloss work. That's a huge spectrum — there's a $40-a-square-foot price and a $120-a-square-foot price. We need to align your expectations with your budget, and that will tell us the scope of work.

I've also realized that what I do is not very scalable. I'm not running a business that's going to scale with a bunch of salespeople and project managers — that's not this world. The guy painting bedrooms for $500 has a much more scalable business.

Jon Bryant: My dad used to say you can be an expert-level craftsman and make just as much money as someone who grows a scalable business. You can do either, and they both work — you just have to figure out which one you want to be. It sounds like you figured that out, Zach. I initially connected with you through social media, and it was clear you were doing something really special from a craft perspective. Fine Paints of Europe, that kind of thing — we've never gone there because of how technical and complicated it is. I tried one time and still have PTSD from that job. A white ceiling with brown high-gloss enamel in a space with 5,000 square feet of uninterrupted flat space. That was the last job I was ever on. Fine Paints of Europe ruined my life. But you guys do that day in and day out.

For the people listening, you just have to decide your lane. You can do just as well in either model — it's just about understanding which one you're building. Do you agree?

Zach Kenney: At the end of the day, a business has to make people happy. It's important to figure out who your target clients are and build a business that serves them. We do a lot of things that are not normal in a standard house painting company, because we have the budgets that allow us to do it. We do a lot more performative things, a lot of the soft stuff that isn't just showing up and painting. And for a long time, that's what fed me — I built a business I enjoyed.

Honestly, I've sort of fallen out of love with it now and I'm building a startup that is scalable. I needed to do this phase for some amount of time. And I think that painters who consider themselves craftsmen represent an extraordinarily high number of people with low self-esteem. I was one of them. I fed my ego through my craft, and because I had low self-esteem, I didn't think I deserved more than whatever hourly rate I had decided on for myself.

But I've done this long enough, figured out what drives me, and what I want. Then I had my first daughter, and that changed my perspective on life. I don't want to sand doors anymore. I want the longest lever on my time. So now I get to take everything I've built and start another business. It's all about aligning who we are as people with what we're building.

Michael Murray: What are you working on building now?

Zach Kenney: We're still a few months out, so I'm not sure I'm ready to talk about it in detail. But I'll say — we're building a home services marketplace.

Jon Bryant: Stealth mode — that's what all the cool kids call it.

Zach Kenney: That's what the startup guys call it.

Michael Murray: One question I do think you'd be open to answering: you're running this different kind of business. We talked about it from the homeowner's perspective and even from yours. Talk about it from the perspective of someone who works for you. I'd imagine their experience today is very different from what it was maybe ten years ago, when you were struggling to make payroll and selling off equipment. How different is the experience for someone working for you now that you're charging the right amount?

Zach Kenney: First of all, the type of person who was willing to come work for me ten years ago — anyone willing to work under the table — is already a subset of humanity that doesn't represent optimal employees, to say the least. Those early years were just chaos. I had this belief that if you just worked really hard and fast and were always moving, that was equal to the most productivity. I never questioned it. It was like constant chaos, and it was all I knew. Those early people — we'd work until 8:30 at night just to get something done so we could get paid. It was absolute Wild West.

That's what happens when you're not charging enough — it's a downward spiral. You can't deliver, and it's inefficiency stacked on inefficiency. But when you start charging properly, you start to breathe, slow down, become efficient, and that actually makes you more money. Things become calm and predictable. It's a completely different vibe today. At this point, I know — it's just paint. A client can call me with whatever, and it's just paint. It was life or death for so long.

Jon Bryant: So you're saying there are no paint emergencies?

Zach Kenney: Very few. We've set off sprinklers in penthouses before — not alarms, actual sprinklers — flooded five units with millions of dollars in damage. So yeah, there are some real situations. But for the most part, no, there are no paint emergencies.

Jon Bryant: You just have to stop heat-gunning things in their living room, Zach. Pretty easy equation.

Zach Kenney: Turns out heat travels a long distance across a ceiling. We had a guy heat-gunning a drywall patch about 80 feet away, and the heat built up and traveled around the ceiling until it hit a sprinkler head. We don't have heat guns on any high-rise projects anymore.

Jon Bryant: So I love your story, Zach. The idea that "I work hard, I move fast, therefore I am winning" — I think a lot of people listening relate to that. We talked a little before the podcast about who's listening and who needs to hear these things. If you're already searching out podcasts, you're already thinking the right way. But for those who are caught in that cycle, where do you think that change happened for you? When did you realize you didn't have to be in constant motion?

Zach Kenney: Transparently, I got sober. That was a huge piece. Substance abuse is a significant issue in our industry, and when I was smoking weed every day and taking Adderall, obviously things were going to go a certain way. Over time, you get older, you become more introspective. I always wanted more, and I had to do work on myself. Once I started holding myself in a little higher regard, things started to shift.

Not everybody is cut out to be a business owner. A lot of people should be employees, and it's unfortunate that more companies aren't well run enough to give people a ladder to climb. I think most guys start their own companies because they think they can make more money that way and there's no real growth path where they currently work. But honestly, a lot of owners probably shouldn't be owners.

Jon Bryant: It's a really big concept. There's that fine line between feeling valued as an employee and the dream of owning your own business. The barrier to entry in painting is so low that a lot of people think it's easy — but the pressures on the other side are way more difficult than they look from the outside. If you haven't done it, it seems simple. Once you've done it, you know.

Zach Kenney: There's an on-ramp to starting a business that almost no one does, and far more people should. If you're working for a painting contractor right now and thinking about going out on your own, the move is to start doing side work first.

When I bid that first job I didn't need, I was able to price it reasonably because I didn't need it. When you have side work and a full-time job, you think, "If you want me to come work on a Saturday, I need to make two or three times what I normally make." So you keep raising your rates on side work. I know a guy in New Hampshire who did that while working as a firefighter until he was charging $110 an hour. He'd say, "I don't need this work. If you want it, here's my rate."

If you start with side work and build your book of business until your weekends are fully packed and you're at $90 an hour, and you can't make that work — you have no business starting a business, because that part is easy. I would tell anyone: start there.

There's also a sad reality that happens. The day you look at your family and say, "I'm starting a painting business," put your name on a truck, get business cards — I watch people not quit and keep doing that for far more years than they should. It breaks them and their families. If you subtly dip your toe in first, it's not humiliating to stop doing side work. It's humiliating to shut down your company and go work for somebody. I'd love to see more people gradually move into business ownership rather than jumping in all at once.

Michael Murray: I love what you said, Zach. And to add to that — businesses in our industry also need to make sure we're creating environments where people don't feel like the only way to have a respectable living is to go start their own company. Pay people a desirable wage, give them good benefits, a nice vehicle, work they're proud of and want to post on social media — why would they need to leave? There are so many people in our industry who thought the only way to not hate this industry was to go out on their own, and then because they got off on the wrong foot, they ended up hating it anyway. We can do so much better when it comes to what we offer our people.

Jon Bryant: Let's pivot a little. I want to talk about high-end sales and how you got into it. I know Instagram played a big role, and I still can't quite figure out what you did — but it's clearly something special. Talk about the role of positioning and social media and how that translated into high-end sales.

Zach Kenney: We should talk offline about some of the gaps, because I think I can help. But what resonated with people and allowed me to do what I did was simple: I spoke to my target audience, answered all their questions, and built trust with them. Every business has a target audience, and there's a reason people buy from you. If you created content around those reasons consistently, you'd build trust and it would be a huge driver of sales within a year or two.

The thing nobody wants to do is the hard work. I've consulted with a number of companies, delivered an amazing plan for what to do, but it's really hard to keep doing something with no positive feedback loops for extended periods of time when you could just spend money on Facebook ads and get leads instantly. Organic social media works for any business — but the people who find success are usually the ones who are desperate, hungry, and willing to grind through that period of silence until they get to the other side.

When established painting businesses try it, they struggle because they don't put the right person in place to execute it, they don't really believe in it, and they have other things where they can get instant ROI. Long-term payoffs are harder to justify, especially when you're getting beat over the head every day.

There's also a lot of misunderstanding between social media marketing for a small business versus chasing influencer vanity metrics. If you had 500 followers and all 500 bought paint jobs from you, you'd be winning. Half of my clients who buy from me will never like or comment on one of my posts, and some don't even follow me — but they've been watching everything. It's a not-so-obvious sales cycle.

Michael Murray: I wanted to follow up on that. Two things we struggle with, and I imagine others do too: one, not being comfortable on social media personally — not wanting to be the person taking videos. And two, not having the time. From the outside, it looks like you've found a really good balance. What would you say to someone with those concerns?

Zach Kenney: Whoever's face you put on social media should be your salesperson. If you're doing the sales, great — it should be you, because that's who the client will recognize when you show up to do the estimate. But sit down and ask yourself: why do people buy from us? You can probably isolate two or three things. Then figure out a way to create content that communicates those two or three things over and over, and do it in a way that doesn't take up a ton of time.

The challenge in the beginning is that the positive feedback loops aren't there, so you have to deeply believe in it. And most established businesses put the wrong person in charge of their social — they hire the "marketing girl" or the creative type. What you actually need is a really good implementer, someone who will just execute a strategy you've laid out. If we said these things over and over, people would want to buy from us. It's less about creativity and more about consistency.

Jon Bryant: So that idea of pre-selling people — you're talking to their needs, doing that work upfront. What does the actual sales process look like when you show up and they already feel like they know you?

Zach Kenney: You're building a relationship, and it's a huge advantage to start with a ton of trust already built. Businesses just build trust and maintain it. If you can do that, you'll do just fine. Our industry standards are so low that people lose trust all the time — we're not perfect either.

My job is twofold. First, I have to come into the estimate truly apathetic about whether I win or lose the job. Deeply apathetic. That's step one.

So I go in there genuinely just asking: are we a good fit? Can I add value to you? What do you want? What I don't do is go in, ask what they want painted, take some measurements, and then send a proposal two weeks later. That's what I did for a long time, and it's what happens a lot. No wonder nothing was working.

This isn't a menu you can just order off of. I need to understand what makes you tick. In my world, I don't paint as a commodity — though I actually respect the idea of treating paint as a commodity, where it's just: is it done or is it not done? But you still have to understand what makes people tick.

What was your experience with painters in the past? What do you like? In my world, I'm always trying to gauge aesthetics. Today I was meeting with a client whose designer had changed the front door color. They asked if we needed to take the door off or could paint it in place. I asked: is this door meant to be a showpiece or just painted like the rest of the trim? They said — no, it's an old historic home, just change the color. Great. That door is $1,200 or less.

That same door could cost $9,000 if they wanted automotive-perfect, mirror finish. We could pull it off, spend a week on it, and bring back a piece of art. But if they just said "I want it high gloss" and I made that assumption, that's on me. It's about asking: are you selling this home soon? Are you planning a remodel? Understanding how this person even sees the paint job — what's going to be a win for them.

I was in a $15 million condo at the Mandarin Oriental once, and every single nail hole in the trim was visible. The old me thought: I'm in a $15 million house, I'm going to deliver a world-class paint job. But the homeowner said, "No, I just want a different color." It was half the cost to just change the color versus make it all look like cabinetry.

My job is to go in curious and find out what makes you tick. Someone who wants crazy perfection? Say less. I've got you. But a lot of people will call about a gloss front door, and there's a range — still really beautiful at the $7,000 entry point, or all the way up to $14,000 with trade-offs at each step. Which one do you want?

When someone tells you everything they want, you distill it into a price and scope of work, and then they say it's too much — that's not on you. You can just say, "You made this price, I didn't. You decided you wanted these things. Which ones would you like to change?" That's how I see it now.

Michael Murray: For anyone listening, I'd suggest you go back and listen to the last five minutes. That was a masterclass in what sales actually is. Too often, we think of sales as something manipulative, like we're in combat with the other person. It's not that. It's asking a lot of questions and being genuinely curious about what the person actually wants. The old you would show up and assume based on someone's car or their house. The new you doesn't do that — because it doesn't give you or them the outcome you're both looking for.

I also love the abundance mindset you have, where you're genuinely apathetic about whether or not you book the job, because you know that if you don't book this one, you'll book the next one tomorrow. That confidence is something we all need in this industry. There is no shortage of people looking for really good painting contractors, and anyone listening needs to remind themselves of that. It's okay to have great conversations, charge a fair price, and move on if it's not the right fit.

Jon Bryant: I want to follow that up, Zach. One of the unique things you do is offer a lot of options. And I think a lot of painting contractors miss the fact that they have options too — from a basic paint job to a highly detailed finish. We make assumptions for customers based on the idea that there are no options. And I'm guessing you have to educate a lot of people on what their options actually are, because just because someone has a $15 million penthouse doesn't mean they understand what paint can truly do.

Zach Kenney: Or care. And just because you have a lot of money doesn't mean you care, and just because you don't have a lot of money doesn't mean you don't. My second largest job of all time was on a $3 million house where we did $630,000 worth of work. Compare that to some of the billionaires we work for who may care far less. You can never assume.

My only goal is alignment between what we are going to do and what they want. That's it. Strategically, what are we trying to do? We're trying to align what people want with what we do, and do it profitably. That's the holy grail.

When you try to squeeze square pegs into round holes, all the pain comes later. I'm not trying to talk you into anything — I'm trying to talk you into what you actually want. Everyone should have some options. Maybe for certain clients it's not about process, it's about scope — like, "You don't want to spend $6,000, you only want to spend $3,000? Let's do the first half of the project and come back for phase two later."

The key is to take your ego and assumptions and leave them at the door. Go in truly curious. You pick up on vibes over time, but I'm constantly probing around the edges — can this expand here, or are you drawing the line here? Because humans aren't rational, and just because someone is one way about one thing doesn't mean they're the same way about everything else.

Jon Bryant: There's a saying — usually attributed to Benjamin Franklin, who apparently said everything — "Never underestimate the poor taste of the American public." It ties into this idea that as salespeople and business owners, we sometimes assume money equals taste or class or style, and that's just not true. You don't know where the wealth came from or how they see the world. That assumption thing is real. I used to say I was addicted to assuming. A few years ago I committed to giving up assumptions and just being curious about everything.

Michael Murray: Rich coming from the guy in Canada talking about the American consumer, but I'll let it slide.

Jon Bryant: It's easier for me to say from up here, I know.

Michael Murray: You're not wrong. And to your point, Zach — people often make the opposite assumption too. I have so many stories from when I was doing sales, walking into someone's home and thinking there's no way they can afford a fair price. I specifically remember one job where I gave the price, fully expecting them to say no. The guy just said, "Sure. Is cash okay for the deposit?" Walked to the bedroom, came back with the full deposit in cash. I never forgot that moment. The reason the outside of their house looked rough was because they'd been saving up their cash for five years — probably longer than I would have tolerated it. It's just not our job to judge. That's a good reminder no matter how long you've been doing this.

Zach Kenney: There's another thing I try to remind people: when you first start a painting business, you're getting all the worst clients. Good clients don't hire a brand-new company — that's just reality. If you let a few people's negative feedback frame your entire worldview, you're going to be stuck.

I remember the first door I did for $800. And if I had listened to everyone who said, "I would never pay $10,000 to have my door painted," I never would have gotten where I am. A lot of times people say "people won't do this" or "people are like that" — but they're letting the wrong clients shape their worldview of all clients.

Every time I go into an estimate with a blank slate, I'm not carrying the weight of past bad experiences. A lot of people who struggle with sales are scarred by a few bad interactions, and those never came from their target client. When people can't elevate to another level of clientele, it's often because they're so worn down by wherever they currently are that all their thinking goes to, "Well, this is just how people are. No one would ever pay more than this."

Instead, I just thought: there must be people who would pay more for paint. There's a high-end version of everything. There must be one for painting. And then you start to find it. Experience can teach you, but it shouldn't close your mind. You still want to go in open.

Michael Murray: I love that. Zach, how do you respond when a potential client says your price is way more than they expected?

Zach Kenney: It doesn't really happen anymore, because we do a lot of vetting upfront. It's not easy to get me out there. If someone was referred by one of my existing clients, I'll go — every single time. But if someone finds me through Google, I've essentially never gone to those. I went to one once because it was next to my shop and the lady seemed nice. I didn't win that job.

The key is, the first thing I ask every single person who calls is: how did you hear about me? I need context. And throughout the process, as I'm asking all these questions, I'm throwing out high anchor numbers. "This door could cost $14,000 — does that scare you away?" I try to set the tone for pricing early. If you've given someone no numbers at all and then hit them with a big number at the end, that's not a great experience.

The lady in Atlanta — I told her she was probably looking at around $150,000. I'll likely never hear from her again. People call from all around the country and when they find out we'd need to fly down, stay in hotels, and we're already expensive in our own backyard — most don't end up wanting to spend it.

If someone wants crazy perfection, say less — I've got you. But I always try to introduce rough numbers throughout the process so that if someone flinches at $150K, I can say, "You picked the most expensive option for the last 30 minutes while we walked through your house. So we probably need to re-talk about everything."

Michael Murray: I love that. How often do you actually travel to places like Atlanta?

Zach Kenney: Pretty rarely. Man, I can't tell you how many times people have called all fired up — dream homes in Miami, crazy plans, even talking about shipping doors to us in the UK — and then when the rubber hits the road and they hear the number, it's crickets. So now when someone calls like that, I'll throw them rough numbers right away on the phone. If they're still in after hearing that, great. But those usually aren't my clients, honestly.

Jon Bryant: This conversation could go on for a long time, Zach. This is fun, man. Out of respect for our audience, we'd love to save some things for next time. We really appreciate you taking the time and helping educate people on how things look in your world. It's a little different, but the stuff you shared today is phenomenal. If everyone could just grasp some of these things, not only would their sales improve, but the industry would genuinely be a better place. Michael, any last thoughts?

Michael Murray: I just resonate with so much of this, Zach. There are so many things you talked about today that I wish I'd heard when I was getting started. The idea that you could possibly travel to another part of the country to do a painting project — that would blow most people's minds. You don't have to try to sell every project. You don't have to lower your price just to stay busy. There's so much here that I thought I knew that I now know differently after years of experience. I just love your willingness to come on and share all of this.

Jon Bryant: Zach, we appreciate you.

Michael Murray: Thank you.

Zach Kenney: One last thing — I want to reiterate job costing. We didn't talk about it enough. Step one: job cost everything. Know what the work actually costs you. And if anyone wants to connect, I'm happy to help. Send me a message on Instagram.

Jon Bryant: How's the best way to connect with you?

Zach Kenney: Find me on social media — ZK Painting. Follow me on Instagram and send me a DM. Just be a normal person about it — don't lead with "tell me everything." Those conversations tend to go sideways fast.

Jon Bryant: Will you be at the PCA this year?

Zach Kenney: Yes, I'll be there. I'm speaking on going from W2 to 1099. I have no employees — we run on all subcontract crews — so we're going to go into everything I've learned and what I'd tell people about making that move.

Jon Bryant: I look forward to that. Zach, thanks again for your time. We'll definitely have you on again. And for those of you who enjoyed today's podcast, feel free to give it a like and subscribe. We'll see you next week on the Price Sell Paint podcast. Thanks, everybody.

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