Your Competition Matters Less Than You Think

Jon Bryant: Welcome back to the Price. Sell. Paint. Podcast. I'm Jon, here with Michael Murray. Michael, how are you doing?

Michael Murray: Doing well, Jon. Mid-late August, kids just went back to school, headed toward fall, beautiful weather. All good. How about you?

Jon Bryant: I just got back from a road trip, feeling refreshed. I've got a beautiful new background today — one time only. Enjoy it while you can.

Michael Murray: There's some construction happening at the PaintScout offices, I've heard rumors.

Jon Bryant: Yes, so I can't be in my office. But I'm excited — it's been a couple weeks since we podcasted and there's been a lot on my mind. I'm sure there has been on yours too.

Michael Murray: That's all I think about.

Jon Bryant: And to everybody out there — running a painting business is not going smoothly. Let's get that out of our heads. Which is actually a good lead-in to what we want to talk about today: your competition. The title of this episode is "Your Competition Matters Less Than You Think." I see this topic constantly online — people worried about competitors pricing lower, customers thinking all painting companies are the same so the lowest price wins, sales teams obsessing over it. And I think neither obsessing over it nor completely ignoring it is the right answer. So today: what role does competition actually play in our businesses? What should we pay attention to, what should we ignore, and what can we learn from it? Michael, how much do you actually care about your competition?

Michael Murray: Generally, very little. I have a quote on my monitor: "If we get better, our customers will demand that we get bigger." That's how I try to operate. One concept we teach at Textbook is what I call blame shifting. When something's not going our way, it's a lot easier to externalize the cause — it makes us feel better and turns off our brain. When something is outside my control, I don't need to fix anything. And when it's the competition — Dan in the van, Chuck in the truck — it lets me off the hook. I've been doing this since 2003, so this is my twenty-fourth year. If I do another twenty-four years, we'll still be talking about that guy who doesn't charge enough. None of that changes. What matters is what I can control. Are we getting better? Are we giving our employees and customers the best experience possible? If we are, we'll probably be okay. Energy spent obsessing over competitors' social media and websites could be spent on something that actually moves the needle.

Jon Bryant: You mentioned a Jeff Bezos quote recently about making better beer. Can you share that?

Michael Murray: I'll probably misquote it, but the idea is: a hundred years ago when electricity was new, breweries could either build their own power plants and be in both the electricity and beer business, or they could just focus on making better beer and let someone else handle the electricity. Bezos used it to explain Amazon Web Services — you don't need your own servers and IT staff, just outsource that and focus on what you actually do. Focus on what makes the beer better. Focus on what makes the painting better. Focus on what your customers actually care about.

Jon Bryant: And that auxiliary stuff — the peripheral things — can feel like competition is one of them. If you go back to what makes your company great and how to present it properly, that's where you actually succeed. But is there anything worth paying attention to with competition?

Michael Murray: Yes. I think it's healthy to know who your competition is, and I think it's great to have friendly relationships with them. It doesn't need to be cutthroat or zero-sum. There's a lot of painting work out there — especially if you're in the upper half of the market trying to provide high-quality experiences, there honestly aren't enough good painting companies in most markets to meet that demand. So I want to focus on how do we get better, how do we move up market, how do we provide an experience people are willing to pay more for.

I do know who our local competitors are. I have some of their cell numbers, I'll text once or twice a year, see how they're doing at events. I'm not asking what they charge — that just gets weird and doesn't matter much anyway. What I do think is worth knowing: market positioning, general pricing landscape, what promises others are making, and how they're going to market. Our sales team will hear clients repeat things they've obviously heard from a competitor, and it's important to understand that so we can help clients make good buying decisions. Here's what they offer, here's what we offer — both can be right, you have to decide what's right for you.

Jon Bryant: How many real competitors do you think you have in Cleveland?

Michael Murray: Probably more than I realize, but when I think about where we're positioned and what we're trying to accomplish — probably five to ten that are genuinely comparable. The chuck in the truck, the guy with a paintbrush and a ladder — that's not really our competition. If we lose a bid to that person, okay, but we're doing thousands of quotes. On the macro level, real competition is very few.

Jon Bryant: In the sales process, I'd actually reference the size of the industry directly. I'd say, "Look, there are thousands of painting companies in this city. Why would we ever be the one you'd pick? What matters to you?" It was a great way to understand what kind of value the customer was looking for. And when certain names came up that I didn't respect, I'd say, "We don't really compete with them — that's not our game." Not disparaging, just a chance to re-explain what we do and learn what the customer actually values. Because so many customers see painting as a commodity — they can't see it, they can't feel it like a car or other tangible purchase. So their default is: you paint, they paint, therefore you're the same, and it comes down to price. Do you feel that?

Michael Murray: To some extent, that's not wrong. I use paintbrushes, rollers, sprayers, Sherwin-Williams paint — and so does the competition. If those are your differentiating factors, you don't have any. So if it's not that, what is it?

Jon Bryant: That's exactly the question. And I think the answer is: know where you fit and why. Which leads back to — how much should you care about your competition? Enough to understand your place in the market.

Michael Murray: We're in the experience game. Too often when we talk about competition, we're talking about things that aren't the experience, and we're not understanding the deciding factors customers are actually using. If you're delivering a great experience and your competition isn't, it's obvious — and that's where real differentiation lives. The goal shouldn't be how do I charge less by providing less. It should be how do I charge more, set higher expectations, and then exceed them. We hear often from customers that we were the highest price and they chose us anyway — because of it, they expect more. Sometimes that burns us when we don't deliver perfectly, and a callback conversation becomes "we expected more from you." That's actually what we want. We want customers to expect more. That's why they pay us more. And then it's our job to deliver every single time — which is hard. But that expectation starts before you ever start painting: how do you answer the phone, how does your website make someone feel, how does the vehicle look, how do you show up, how does your appearance communicate your values? So many things shape the perceived experience before you've even said a word.

If you're too focused on competition, all of that is really difficult to execute. It's important to understand how competitors are positioning themselves — so you can find the white space and commit to it. You've got to go all-in on your strategy. Too often companies try to be in the middle, serve everybody, and end up standing for nothing.

Jon Bryant: Should competitors influence your pricing?

Michael Murray: Generally, no. Most painting companies are slowly going out of business — some faster than others. The business owners I've talked to who are making really good money and running great companies are almost universally the most expensive option in their market. So don't try to copy the pricing of companies that are struggling to make payroll. Is somebody charging less than you? Probably. Are they making money on that project? Not necessarily. They might not know how to price either.

That was the whole reason Jon and I started talking before we ever had microphones — too much of our industry doesn't know how to price a job, so everyone chases each other around. This person copied that person, who copied the other person, and if you trace it back to the original source, they just made up a number, somebody said yes, and they went with it — and they're not making any money. Don't follow that chain.

Know your own numbers. What do you need to charge to take care of your people, your family, invest in marketing, hire well, buy reliable vehicles, and show up consistently for your customers? If you figure that out, there's a market for it. You will always lose some jobs because somebody was cheaper. That's okay. Abundance mindset — there's enough work.

Jon Bryant: As a sales rep or business owner listening right now: if you haven't done the math to figure out what you need to charge, pause this podcast and go find those materials. PaintScout.com has some, or just Google it. Understand your average hourly rate and why. Because if you're looking at someone else's price to set yours, that's their business — not yours. A company starting out with zero overhead should be cheaper. That's a different value equation. As you build reputation, systems, and people, your price has to reflect that. Customers understand this instinctively — we all know quality correlates to price. Once you know your number, it gives you incredible control. I remember the day I learned it — it changed everything. I understood I can never go below this number and stay in business. I can go up based on demand and seasonality, but never below. And I can't hire more expensive people without raising that price.

When I first started twenty years ago, I walked into a paint store and asked the clerk how much I should charge. This old grizzled painter came out and said, "Sonny, it's two dollars a square foot." I had no idea what that meant but went with it. I was talking to my brother Dave recently and he told me new construction is still going for two bucks a square foot. Hasn't moved in twenty years. It's mind-bending.

Michael Murray: I'm going to retire to a Sherwin-Williams and just wait for young business owners to walk in. Production rate estimating, my friend.

Jon Bryant: I'll add one thing though — when you're starting out with low overhead, it's tempting to price low and just get work. But you need to price for the company you want, not just the company you have. It's easy to win work cheap, but you also need to be improving your sales skills so you can sell at higher prices and afford to grow — a sales rep, an office, an admin person. More jobs at bad margins isn't the answer. The answer is getting pricing right and then scaling that. Business margin often gets pinched at certain growth points. Ask yourself: does my current pricing model support the next phase of my business?

Jon Bryant: If everybody just raised their price ten percent today, they'd probably be just fine.

Michael Murray: You probably wouldn't win or lose any more jobs, and it might make all the difference. That could literally be your profit for the year. And we have a scarcity mindset problem in this industry — especially around winter. If it's your first year, summer feels like it'll last forever. If it's not your first year, you know that's absolutely not true. And that scarcity mindset, if you're not careful, becomes the dominant way you see everything — including competition. Suddenly it feels like if they win, I lose. But they can be busy and you can be busier. Growth and competition can absolutely coexist.

Jon Bryant: Because everything always has to be painted, Michael. That wall I just painted — it's gotta be repainted.

Michael Murray: True. I was actually talking to one of our sales reps today — Jordan — and he'd been listening to the episode with Dave Bryant. He was joking he was just going to go golfing every day since that seems to be Dave's strategy. But what struck him was just how much commercial work is out there. Every building, every house has surfaces that have been painted and will need to be painted again. It's kind of mind-blowing how much work exists.

Jon Bryant: Some of it is just delayed or procrastinated — painting is on a list somewhere, might happen this year, might happen next year. There are ways to push that forward. Okay, let's transition. Pricing shouldn't be "what are they charging?" — it should be "what do I need to charge?" That's a different mentality. And competition, when you think about it properly, is really about differentiation. So why would someone choose Textbook?

Michael Murray: Someone chooses us because they value experience. They want a predictable outcome, a full-service company, hands-off project management, great communication. We use technology — PaintScout included — to make the experience modern and high-touch. Customers feel stressed when they don't know what's happening, so we try to anticipate those needs before they come up. Having project coordinators ask questions upfront: where should we clean things out, what bathroom should our team use, are there pets, are there kids — these all come from years of finding small pain points and building processes around them. Preemptive conversations take stress off people. So someone should choose us if they want a great experience, low stress, strong communication, and a company that stands behind their work with great warranties and products. If they're primarily looking for the lowest price and don't care as much about the experience or longevity, they probably shouldn't go with us — and that's okay.

Jon Bryant: You distilled that into about thirty seconds. And the sales lesson there: we should be pitching very little. Too many reps show up and just tell customers why they're great without ever learning why the customer is actually looking to hire someone or what matters to them. Listening and asking questions should dominate the appointment. Then there's a thirty-second pitch — "did you want to know anything about us?" They say sure, and you say: not everyone chooses us, but the people who do are discerning — they know what they want. Then come the values, the differentiators. And then: is that important to you? Because we're likely not the cheapest, and that's for the reasons I just described. Is there still an opportunity here?

Michael Murray: Let's go.

Jon Bryant: Let's go. That to me is a critical part of the process. Know why someone would choose you. Pull your best Google reviews, figure out what customers actually say. And here's an exercise worth doing: use AI — Claude, ChatGPT, whatever you use — and ask it to analyze all your Google reviews and customer feedback, then answer: why do our customers choose us? What are they highlighting? Then use that to inform your marketing, your branding, your sales conversations. It's a great exercise.

Jon Bryant: And it's a good reminder that we are different, even when you lose a couple of bids and start to doubt yourself. Having that pitch, that clarity — it's an emotional playbook. Instead of riding the highs and lows of sales, you can stay grounded: we're really good, they just chose different priorities, and that's okay. Moving on. So — is competition ultimately good for your business?

Jon Bryant: I think the better the competition, the better we are. Iron sharpens iron. I'd love to have the best competition ever so we'd have to become the best.

Michael Murray: Absolutely. We have a company in Cleveland that's been around more than fifty years. I think they make us better. They charge well, they're at the top of the market, they have a good reputation, they're trying to do things right. That's a good thing. I want to compete — but by making myself better, not by pulling them down. As an athlete, you don't improve by trying to injure your opponent. You go to the driving range and practice your craft. See your competitors as sparring partners forcing you to get better, not as the problem.

Jon Bryant: And in the sales process, understanding that competition is good means understanding that if done properly, no one is actually the same. Your business is different. As everyone gets better, we all end up running more professional, sustainable, profitable companies. And as someone told me recently: you learn the most in defeat, not in victory. You need that to keep getting better.

For everyone listening, this is a chance to reset — evaluate your pricing, clarify your differentiation, and reset your mindset. Lean into competition rather than fighting it.

Michael Murray: Look internal. If we get better, our customers will demand that we get bigger. If one out of a hundred customers doesn't have a great experience, I care more about fixing that than about what a competitor is doing. Too often in our industry it's been crabs in a bucket, pulling each other down. But look at other home service industries that are absolutely thriving — there's a real opportunity here for people in painting. We don't have to just pull each other down.

Jon Bryant: Well said. Michael, wrap us up?

Michael Murray: You should definitely not subscribe, you should definitely not tell your friends, and liking this podcast is certainly frowned upon.

Jon Bryant: Fantastic. Thanks for tuning in to Price. Sell. Paint. We can't wait to chat with you again soon. Thanks so much.

Michael Murray: Thank you.