Jon Bryant: Hey everyone, welcome back to the Price. Sell. Paint. podcast. Today we have a great guest. If you don't know Jim Falk, I'm excited for you to hear a little bit about who he is. Jim is a dear friend of mine and Michael's. We've had the privilege of learning from Jim for the last 10 years. Jim's had an amazing impact behind the scenes as a sales trainer with the Nolan Consulting Group, and now as the VP of Sales of Nolan Painting, which is one of the nation's largest painting companies. Jim manages eight going on nine sales reps and has had an amazing impact on so many of us here in the painting community. So Jim, welcome to the podcast.

Jim Falk: Thank you both. Excited to be here with you.

Jon Bryant: Did I miss anything in there, Jim? Any other highlights you need to let the world know about?

Jim Falk: You hit it pretty well. We're a residential repaint company. We're on pace to do over 15 million in revenue this year. We have eight salespeople, which includes me, and we're looking to add another by the end of the year. We're excited about growth opportunities. We continue to grow geographically and to a smaller degree getting into some light commercial repaint work as well. We're excited about what the future holds for us as a company.

Jon Bryant: That's great. What I said at the start about the training and what you've brought to our lives—we want to dig into this a little bit, get some of that 30 years of experience and try to learn a little bit about what this takes. So many people in this industry need help with sales, and you've been able to deliver that in a really helpful way that's had this long tail benefit to all of us.

Michael Murray: You just casually dropped that $15 million number, which is insane. The average company in our industry is doing maybe $150,000 or something like that. You've been doing this a while though. How long have you been at Nolan Painting, and what was it like when you first got there?

Jim Falk: That's a great question. It has been a rocket ship ride, albeit a 20-year ride for me at Nolan Painting so far. I joined the team officially in January of 2004, so I'm at my 20th year with the company. When I joined in 2004, we did $3 million in revenue for the first time as a company. Obviously we were much smaller back then, but there was the same level of excitement because it was the first time we'd hit three million. We were convinced we were poised for growth with the strategy we had in place, the systems, the business systems, the people we had on the bus. We felt like we had it all put together.

I want to share a little bit of my background because I think it's important for everybody to hear. This is actually my 30th year in the paint industry. My first 10-plus years was on the manufacturing end, and I got to know Kevin, John, Steve, and other people here at Nolan Painting really well as a customer of mine—I was selling paint to them.

In the early 2000s, there were some organic talks about potentially me coming aboard as a salesperson and helping the team grow. I was excited at the opportunity because I really loved the company and the values and the people that were running it. But at the time, I have to share, I was an extremely frustrated sales rep. There was a period of time in my life where I debated whether I really had the metal for sales.

The company I was working with at the time was a local family company where I'd worked my way up the ladder. For years I operated as what was known as an operational sales manager and ran stores for the company, which I loved doing. I had a very loyal base of clients. I liked interacting with people. It was in a controlled atmosphere, and I flourished doing that.

In talking with the vice president of sales at the time, the next logical step was to go into outside sales—that's how you move up higher in the company, how you make more money. I thought, "That seems like a no-brainer. I like people, I like interacting with people, I like talking with people. That should be a slam dunk."

So I went into outside sales, which was known as a district sales manager. And I did anything but flourish. I floundered for two years. There was no formal training, really no corporate leadership. It was basically "go out and call on people that aren't buying from us and do the best you can." There was just no rudder to steer the ship. It was "figure it out on your own."

I floundered at that for a couple of years and became a really frustrated salesperson to the point where I almost hated getting up in the morning and going and spending another day in sales. At this time, as Kevin and I and John here at Nolan Painting were having more discussions, I confided and said, "I'm not quite sure that this is really what I want to do—being in sales for the rest of my life."

At the time, Nolan Painting had just engaged with a sales training company, and Kevin offered for me to join them. I was still working for the other company at this time. He said, "I'll cover the expense. Why don't you give it a shot?" I thought, "I've got nothing to lose."

That initial training—at the time they called it a jumpstart—was like a three or four month intensive training program. My whole world was blown up at that time. The coach we were working with opened my eyes, and I immediately started to see all the mistakes, all the pitfalls, all the ridiculous things that I was doing the previous two years that led to my failure in sales.

He really opened our eyes to the fact that sales can have a framework, a process, a system. When you become really good at working within that system and framework, you can see incredible success in sales, and it can actually be fun. For whatever reason, I just gravitated to that. Over the course of three or four years, we worked with three different coaches, and it was mind-blowing to me. I couldn't get enough of it. I ingrained it into my daily activities, and it just changed my whole world.

Now fast forward another 20 years, and I just can't get enough of it. I love sales. I continue to study it, constantly looking at ways to sharpen the saw and make sure that I'm on top of my game. For anybody listening, there are tremendous opportunities in any industry, but within the sales world and sales profession, to improve your game and dramatically increase your productivity and your sales.

Michael Murray: What would you recommend for somebody listening who is a sales rep at a painting company, or maybe a business owner still focused on making sales, looking to improve? What kind of resources would you point them to—types of training, books, coaches? Where might you suggest somebody get started?

Jim Falk: That's a great question. It's interesting—there's certainly no shortage of sales experts in the world. If you type "how do I sell" into your Google search bar, you'll have reading material for probably 50 lifetimes. The system that I gravitated towards—unbeknownst to us at the time—but the first coach we worked with really taught and coached the Sandler principles.

So the Sandler sales system is what I've spent 20 years focusing on. I'll share one book that I have our sales team reading right now: You Can't Teach a Kid to Ride a Bike at a Seminar. It's the only book written by David Sandler. At the time, this was mind-blowing. It basically took sales and turned it on its end.

At a time where everybody was focusing on features and benefits and doing these dog and pony shows and these fancy presentations—basically doing all the telling—Sandler flipped that on its end. He saw a lot of the pitfalls in traditional sales. In that model, you typically don't find out what the customer's concerns are, what he called their "pains," what their biggest frustrations might be, what their "why" is.

By focusing on asking the right types of questions, we can really get in close with prospects and learn about them and their world and grow trust and create trust on a whole other level. For anybody that's looking for any type of resource, I absolutely suggest starting with that book. But there are Sandler training franchises worldwide, and I guarantee for most people listening to this podcast, there's probably a Sandler franchise not too far from them.

That's what changed my world. That's what changed Nolan Painting's world when it comes to sales. It just changed the way we thought about everything and how productive we were and how we used each and every lead to our advantage.

Jon Bryant: When I met you, Jim, that was the first time I'd ever heard of that book and that process. I'm a testament to that working because it clicked for me too. In fact, not only in sales, but the rest of my life—how you get to know people and interact with people. People love to buy, I've heard you say, but hate to be sold. I think that's the principle of a lot of this stuff.

Michael Murray: You mentioned asking questions is one of the core principles of the Sandler method—really understanding the customer's pains and where they're coming from and what it is that they're looking for. Let's take this specifically into that residential repaint sales experience. What are some of the types of questions, and talk to us a little bit about how you've been able to personalize this system to be so successful in this industry.

Jim Falk: That's a great question. A lot of his principles I've been able to successfully adapt to make it fit our industry. I think that's critical because it's like operating within a framework. There's a blueprint for success, but ultimately you have to make it your own.

Even within our industry, one of the things I've always told people that I've coached and worked with, including our own sales team here at Nolan Painting, is you have to make the system work for you. It has to come from you and from the heart. There might be ways that I go about sharing a message with a prospect—maybe when I set the table, I say certain things, or the questions I ask, how I go about setting up next step agreements, how I approach the dreaded question about budget.

There are things that I say and ways that I convey them that might not be comfortable to any number of my sales team members. I encourage them to take the time—how would you say it? How does it come off natural for you? Because you can copy what I say or I can try to copy what one of my sales reps says, but if it doesn't come off natural, you better believe if it doesn't come off natural in your head, it's not coming off very natural to the prospect, and then you run the risk of pushing them away and having them shut down, which is really the opposite of the intent.

In regards to particular questions, sometimes it's the simplest questions that garner the most interest and intrigue and open the lines of communication. One of the things I always ask upfront, usually early when I'm setting the table or that first initial three, four, five minute conversation is: "Can I ask you to share what were you hoping to learn about us or the process today to feel comfortable and confident that we may be a good fit?"

It's a very simple question, but it's an open-ended question—they can't simply answer yes or no. It gets them to start thinking. Usually when I ask that question, they put some thought behind it. You can almost see them processing—their eyes might look up one way or the other, or they turn for a second. I've even had people say, "That's a great question," and they kind of stroke me in the process, which is kind of fun.

But that simple question will give me clues as to where I need to steer the conversation and have at least an upfront understanding of what's going to be important to them. I ask other questions such as: "If you were to share with me your two or three biggest concerns when it comes to hiring and trusting a professional contractor, what might that sound like? What are your most important considerations when you look to hire somebody?"

Always open-ended questions because I have this healthy curiosity. I just want to get to know that prospect and get in closer to them. I love that quote: people hate to be sold, but they sure do love to buy. That's what I always viewed this as. When I interact with prospects, I don't view myself as a salesperson. I've reframed and retrained the way I think about it. What I view myself as is really a consultant.

A good consultant does what? A good consultant asks a lot of questions. They want to get to know that prospect on a better basis—what's important to them, where the pains lie. You can only do that by asking questions.

Another saying that I love to live by is: if you're telling, you're not selling. If you find that you're dominating every sales meeting—you're doing all the talking and you're spewing out features and benefits—Sandler always called this "show up and throw up." If you're dominating the conversation that way, you're likely not selling because you're in essence trying to talk that prospect into something rather than really getting to know them and understanding them.

Another one: prospects don't care about how much you know until they know that you care. The only way that they know that you're going to care is for you to learn to ask questions and then shut up and actively listen. The better you are at that, the closer you're going to get with prospects and the more trust you're going to gain.

Michael Murray: I hope anyone listening goes back and just writes down or re-listens to some of the things that Jim just said. To Jim's point, it's not about just memorizing those questions, but it's the understanding that if you are struggling, you might want to go back and really think about: am I doing most of the talking? Do I think of my job as the customer called me out, I show up and say, "Which rooms do you need painted? Give me a few minutes here. I'll have a price for you," and you show them the price and say, "Let me know if you want to do this or I'll call you next week."

That's probably the most common approach, as opposed to slowing down, asking some questions. We all think that customers are going to buy because of the price, but what I hear you saying, Jim, is they're buying for all sorts of different reasons. If we're just going there to give them a price, we're going to be leaving a lot of opportunities on the table.

Jim Falk: 100%. I couldn't say it better myself. In our marketplace, and I'd be willing to bet for anybody listening to this podcast that is running a legitimate company and looking to grow, they're probably not the cheapest contractor in their marketplace. We're the highest priced contractor in our marketplace, and it's not uncommon when we're competing against other contractors that are 20, 30, 40% less than our cost, sometimes even less.

But you can't view painting as a commodity. It's easy to do, and I'd venture a guess, just based on my own experience, that a lot of the prospects you meet with upfront view it as a commodity. Meaning, "I'm going to interview three painters." In a commodity business, what wins? The price. If you have a prospect that interviews contractor A, B, and C, and they view them all the same—it's a commodity, painters are painters, they're all doing the same things—then as a consumer, you'd almost be silly not to go with the lowest price. Why would you choose the middle or the higher price?

When we're the highest priced contractor in our market, we can't afford to think that way. We'll lose our shirt. We wouldn't be around this long. So it is critically important when we meet with prospects to slow down the process. Even doing things like setting the table and creating an upfront contract with prospects is a game changer. It automatically changes the way they think about the interaction that they're about to have.

Helping them understand the value that we bring, me understanding as a sales professional what's important to them, and custom tailoring a presentation around that is critically important. The more emotional connection I can make with a prospect, the less it becomes about price. But if we're going in with this commodity mentality, we're going to lose that game over and over and over again.

That's the mindset that we've instilled in our sales team here at Nolan Painting. As a sales team, we consistently, despite being the highest priced contractor in the market, close north of 50%. It's because of a lot of these techniques that we employ and really getting to know customers and caring about them and their needs. I don't want to overcomplicate it—sometimes it's as simple as that. It's really just taking the time to get to know people, wanting to get to know people and wanting to understand their pains and their concerns. The better we are at doing that, the more the message resonates and the more likely they are to want to do business with us.

Jon Bryant: There's so much we can get into about this. I know we want to make a small change here in the subject, which is that you've made a transition now. You went from not loving sales to learning how to love sales, excelling, training hundreds or thousands of people. Now you've made a transition here at Nolan Painting from sales rep, which you loved and you've excelled at, to VP of sales. Can you tell people what that's been like for you?

Jim Falk: I don't even know where to start with that one. It's been—I'm going to say it's been fun, but it's also been a challenge for me. You hit the nail on the head. I went from hating sales, and I can't underscore that enough because of the floundering I did early in my career, to being trained and looking at it differently, to loving sales and then excelling at it.

I'm not typically one to brag, but I performed at the highest level in our industry for a long time—not just in dollar sold. I had a mindset, and a lot of it starts with mindset. I don't miss goals. It's not even an option. I don't miss goals. Because I always had that mindset, I never missed a number. I consistently had a win rate of 70 to 80% year over year, and it's because of a lot of these techniques that we talk about.

I loved it. It was always about keeping the saw sharp, wanting to learn more, wanting to become better and better, immersing myself in it. When you coach and train it at the same time, that only reinforces everything that I do on a daily basis.

But I knew that I wanted to continue to grow my career, and I do love the mentoring and coaching aspect of what I've done for years. I knew at some point, as there were changes happening here internally at Nolan Painting, there was going to be an opportunity for me to continue to grow my career. A couple of years ago, the opportunity came about to take over as vice president of sales here, and I jumped at it. It was time.

But it's been an interesting transition because I had to come to terms—and if I'm being honest, I'm probably still coming to terms with this—I love selling so much that it's been hard for me to really fully back off of that. But I have realized that as our team will continue to grow in the future, they have their own needs. So I've taken that coaching and mentoring background and philosophy and now really started to instill and work with our own team here at Nolan Painting. That part I absolutely love.

There's maybe some parts of the job that I'm still struggling with and figuring out as I go along, which is fine. That's always going to be the case with any new job or challenge. Backing off the sales has been a little bit tougher for me just because I love that piece of it. But certainly taking that mentoring and training part of what I do and working with our own team here at Nolan Painting, that part has been extremely rewarding for me. I look forward to continuing to grow our team here.

Jon Bryant: I want to ask you a couple of questions about that management. We haven't had a chance to talk to anybody who has managed as big of a team as you do. I think a lot of people are probably curious what that looks like. To imagine a painting company with eight or nine sales reps—that's huge. That's scary.

Michael Murray: Can you imagine eight or nine Jim Falks in a room?

Jim Falk: It's funny you say that, Mike, because I just had a sales training session with our team yesterday. We were in this smaller conference room at one of our satellite locations and we met for 90 minutes, and it got loud in that room quick, but in a good way. Everybody was sharing ideas and different things going on. It was a lot of fun.

Jon Bryant: For those who are interested, what does it look like? How do you structure the time for this many people? What are your expectations?

Michael Murray: Maybe even just to add clarity, like a newer sales rep versus somebody with that veteran three-plus years of experience. How do you think about those expectations differently?

Jim Falk: That's interesting. One thing that I've always been mindful of is that I didn't want to become a micromanager. I've had my own experiences early in my career with people that manage that way, and it's not fun. I never wanted to be that type of person.

One of the beauties in sales is that if you're not putting in the work, the proof's in the pudding. The numbers don't lie. You're either hitting metrics or you're not. We measure a lot of different metrics here for our sales team. Obviously we measure sales quotas, but we measure the sales rate—what's the dollar rate they're selling at? They have parameters that they have to hit each month for sales rate. What's their win rate? The win rate being the close rate as a percentage of dollars and total leads closed. And then productivity—we look at the productivity of their jobs. Meaning, you bid the job for 100 hours, how did that job actually come out? Did it take 110 hours or did it take 98 hours?

We measure all these metrics every month, and we pay—it's what we call pay for performance. We pay bonus pay each month to each sales rep for hitting certain metrics. To me, I never wanted to be a micromanager because ultimately, if you're not hitting metrics, it becomes painfully clear very quickly that there's trouble on the tracks. At that point, we need to intervene.

I've always had that philosophy, but I want to make sure that all of our reps know that any assistance they need, I'm there for them. All you've got to do is call me or shoot me a text and let's make it happen.

As far as expectations of sales reps, each of our more senior sales reps in essence create their own schedule. Monday through Friday, if you were to look at each of their calendars on Google, you'd see that they all have different start and finish times. Sometimes they have themselves penciled out in the middle of a day, or they have themselves scheduled out Wednesday afternoons for no appointments and they use that for follow-up time and catch-up time.

We allow them within reason to set their own calendars. Now, if somebody says, "I'm going to work every day from 12 to 2," that's not going to fly. But we allow them to set their own calendars.

A younger sales rep—we have one that we hired earlier this year that over the last few months has really been kicking butt—I'll spend more time with that individual salesperson, doing a lot of shadowing, more training, making sure that they're getting up to speed as quickly as possible, learning the estimating systems, Paint Scout, and focusing on the sales aspect. Let's talk about the conversations that you're going to engage with each prospect.

Spending more time with the younger reps to help them get up to speed because they just tend to need more attention. They're learning, and in many cases they're learning the industry. We've had some good success with salespeople that have come from outside of the industry, not even in the construction industry. They have a sales background, but when they start with us, there's a lot of training that has to happen with product knowledge and learning estimating systems and our industry as a whole.

The other thing we do is each quarter, I want each sales rep to have an understanding of what winning looks like. We know what winning looks like because we define the metrics: here's your productivity goal, here's your sales rate goal, here's your sales quota, here's our goal for win rates. But those numbers are just numbers.

Let's take a look at sales quota for a quarter. Say it's $500,000 just to throw out a round number. That's all fine and dandy, but what does that mean? I begin a quarter and I've got a goal of a half million dollars. What's it going to take to achieve that? Do I just go out and do my selling activities every day and hope at the end of three months that I've hit that number? Or do we reverse engineer it?

We create—I help each individual sales rep create their own "cookbooks" every quarter. A cookbook is reverse engineering. It's starting with your goal, understanding what your average job size is, and understanding what your average win ratio is. With those three metrics, you can determine how many prospects you need to meet with every day.

That's what I want my sales reps to have—that understanding of, "I have a half million dollar goal for the quarter, but by backing out and reverse engineering and using those metrics, now I understand that if I have three, three and a half, four prospect meetings every day, at the end of that three months, I'm going to have hit my goal if my historic numbers hold true."

It's really interesting. When I talk to some of our reps, they'll even share with me—it could be the end of the week and I'll ask them how the week was, and they'll share with me, "Yeah, I'm right on track. I had to meet with 20 prospects this week and I hit my 21st today on Friday afternoon. So I'm right on target." A lot of them really embrace those metrics and numbers because it helps them understand what they need to be doing on a daily basis to ensure they're going to hit their goal at the end of the month or at the end of the quarter.

Michael Murray: I hear you saying you're taking those bigger numbers and starting to break them down into monthly, weekly, daily activities, which is super critical. I'd love to be able to give maybe a little bit of specificity. One of the things that John and I have heard—and I struggle with as well—is what does good look like? Obviously everybody's market is different. Some specific questions: How many estimates per week would you say is a target number for a sales rep in our residential repaint industry?

Jim Falk: That's a great question, and I know this has been debated in the past. I can tell you from my experience when I was selling full time—and I do think some of this is based on the individual—but for me, I always felt that 20 prospect meetings a week was right in my sweet zone. Five-day week, figure four a day.

What I found is that you could do six, seven, eight a day if you're really pushing it, but what happens now is you have a shorter amount of time to spend with every prospect. Basically when you have a shorter amount of time and you have a lot of things swirling and going around in your head, you fall into bad habits. You stop selling and you start telling, and you're trying to get in and out of every appointment as quick as possible. You're trying to develop an estimate, you're trying to develop a scope of work, and you're not having great conversations with prospects.

I found that to be a waste of time because my goal as a sales rep was always not to develop a transaction—"I sell somebody something, they buy it, it's transactional." My goal was really to become more of a trusted advisor, to make it more relationship-driven. The only way I could do that was by spending more time with every prospect, slow down the process and get to know them more.

As we were talking about earlier in the podcast, slowing down meaning asking more questions and getting to know them and engaging them—that's how you develop relationships. That type of mentality pays dividends over time. You can't do that when you're doing five, six, seven estimates a day. It's impossible.

In fact, one of the things that we changed here at Nolan Painting years ago was when I first started, we had an hour allotted for every appointment. When we realized we need to slow the process down, we increased that to an hour and a half. Now we look at it—if it's a full interior, if it's a larger project—we're allowing two hours for that appointment because we want that salesperson to slow the process down and have those engaging conversations.

Jon Bryant: When you say two hours, Jim, is that just on site or is that also...

Jim Falk: Great question, John. That will include drive time as well. But we've cut drive time down significantly because—no, not private jets—we have our sales team, just like our field operations, broken into geographies. They each have a geographical area that they work within, which just makes best use of time for them. And they get to know the neighborhoods a lot better.

Michael Murray: One of the things you mentioned earlier, your win percentage of 70 to 80%—I don't want to bury that. I've seen some of your numbers, maybe some years even over that percentage, which is insane. What would you say is a good target percentage for somebody in their first 12 months, somebody who's maybe newer to the industry?

Jim Falk: I would say 70 to 80%. No, I'm just kidding. You're going to come here, you're going to perform.

Our team here at Nolan Painting—our expectation is north of 50%. If they're consistently winning less than—and I want to define winning close ratio, because I think that's important—but if they're consistently winning less than 50%, that suggests to me and the team here that there's a problem. They're having difficulty selling the value, and they're probably viewing our product and they're allowing the prospect to view our product as a commodity.

But I think for a first-year rep, especially if they came from outside of the industry, there's so much to learn. The painting industry, from the outside looking in, seems simple—you buy a can of paint, you roll it on. But we all know there's a lot of technical knowledge that goes behind it. Learning that, learning estimating skills—now with the help of programs like Paint Scout, that makes that a lot easier to train, which is awesome. But there's still a learning curve. Paint Scout is a blueprint to point you in the right direction, but there's still things that we have to account for that are outside of that framework.

Teaching that and learning that, learning the sales process—there's a lot going on for somebody that's come outside of the industry, a lot to learn. Personally, if they're a good salesperson, even new to the industry, they should be at least 40%. That's the goal I look for. Then as they become more seasoned, 50% becomes the minimum.

Now, I mentioned win and close rate, and this is something that I look at very differently. Most people, most companies talk about their close rate, meaning the amount of jobs that they won. The mindset that I have, and what I've trained countless companies and sales reps, including our own team, is that there's a distinct difference between win and close rate.

Think of the word close. Close is a part of the word closure. One of the things that I taught myself and reframed the way I think about sales and my interactions with prospects is that at the end of the day, the only thing that I can expect from a prospect, if I'm engaging them correctly and I'm truly setting the table properly upfront with them, is a simple yes or no.

At the end of the day, I know I'm not going to win everyone, and that's fine. But I do expect real, authentic communication and honesty from prospects. I set the tone and the table upfront in my meetings with prospects to let them know that. "Hey, for any reason you decide that we're not going to be the perfect fit, there's no harm, no foul here. All I ask is that we have an open and transparent conversation. If we're not going to be the right fit, that's fine. We can close the books and perhaps we can talk another time in the future."

I do expect 100% closure, and I teach my reps that they should expect 100% closure, meaning an honest answer, a yes or no at the end of the day. The win rate, of course, is the amount of jobs that you're selling and you're actually getting signed contracts and deposits and producing the work.

But as sales professionals, anybody listening to this, you should absolutely demand 100% closure. To demand anything less than that is to really view sales from an amateur's lens. The reason that's important is because it's a game changer. I found that when you engage prospects early on and let them know upfront that "hey, for any number of reasons, if it's not going to work, it's not going to be the right fit, no problem. I just ask that you be honest and transparent," all of a sudden it's this shift from "Jim's here, maybe he's not here just to try to sell something or jam a product or service down my throat."

I have found that when you really deliver it and you believe that and it comes from your heart, that prospects open up in a different way. Because now all of a sudden they don't feel like, "Hey, this is somebody here who's just going to try to talk me into something or coerce me into buying something or try to get me to sign on the line that is dotted." We're here to have a real, honest communication and conversation together. I have found that over the years to be a game changer and a critical part of my own success.

Jon Bryant: I've got to have one more question here before we go today. All the things you've talked about here—expectations for new reps, your experience in the past, your experience now—do you feel like there's something that's a clear indication that somebody entering sales in the painting industry is going to be successful?

Jim Falk: Meaning before we hire them or after we hire them?

Jon Bryant: I mean, you could cover both.

Michael Murray: Yeah, I would especially love to hear after. What are you looking for in those first few months to know—to your point, they might not be great at this yet, but they've got the thing that we can build on?

Jim Falk: I can tell you, I think this is constantly a work in progress because I truly believe that hiring a great salesperson and somebody that fits your company—meaning your values and your culture—it's not an easy thing to do. As many successes as we've had along the way, we've also had failures as well.

People that I thought were going to really work out—we hired a sales rep earlier this year. We hired two in the winter, and one is now flourishing and the other one who I thought was clear-cut going to be a rock star ended up moving on after a few months. I was kind of left scratching my head a little bit.

A lot of it upfront, before the hire, is doing due diligence. We have a process where we actually have a full-time recruiter that works for us, which is pretty cool. It'll start with posting ads, and he does the initial comb-through and the initial filtering process. If there's people that look the part and may potentially be a good fit for us, we'll go to the next step.

There's a brief Zoom interview, let's say 20 to 30 minutes. If that goes well, then that candidate is invited in for an in-person interview. We also administer DISC profiles. Anybody that's looking to hire these types of positions should be doing some kind of profile, whether it's DISC, there's also OMG sales assessments, there's a couple other ones as well.

For years we've used DISC, and DISC is a personality profile. You get to know the person that you're interviewing, and there are certain personality traits—effective traits—that we look for in a DISC profile. They tend to be high D personalities, which is the dominant personality, meaning they're not afraid to go for closure. They're not afraid to ask for the sale. They're not afraid to ask the hard questions. They're not afraid to talk about money and budget and all those good things.

Then we also look for an effective trait of being a high I, an influencer—gregarious, a social person, somebody that actually likes being around other people. I would say that's pretty important if you're entering the world or in the world of sales.

The final step, if it's somebody that we're interested in after that in-person interview, is we invite them in for a half day and they shadow me on a handful of appointments. That gives me an opportunity to see that person and how they might interact with our clients. I think that's a critical part.

It sounds like a lot of work and it is, but going through those thoughtful steps really helps us hone down and find somebody that's potentially going to be a good fit—not only in the position and the world of sales and having success in sales, but also do they fit our values? Do they fit our culture here? Are they friendly? Is it somebody—the other thing I look for, a lot of the questions I ask during the interview process—I want to know if they're going to be coachable.

If there's somebody that has this mindset where they have it all figured out and "this is the way I've always done it," I'm not sure that's going to be the right fit. I definitely want somebody that's going to be open to coaching and open to training and open to some new ideas and want to improve. Those are the steps that we take during the initial process before we make a formal offer.

After, it's really about me spending more time with that rep and continuing to get to know them, having a better understanding of their strengths and weaknesses, where can I really help them, where do they need help? I can only really do that by spending time and continuing to see how they interact with prospects. Then I can continue to coach and train with them and get them to that higher level of success.

Michael Murray: I love it. I think what I took away from that is you're looking for that humility but also that confidence. You're looking for somebody who is willing to learn. I will say that this seems to be a lifelong passion for you, and the energy that you brought today and the energy that you've brought to all the interactions—John, I know you resonate as well—I just appreciate what you've done for me. John, I know you feel the same way. I'm excited that we were able to have you on today.

I think anybody listening, there's just so many good takeaways. I think it's really inspiring to see how you have been so successful in an industry that is difficult. You've been able to not just create a great life for yourself, create awesome opportunities for people at Nolan Painting, but all the different people that you've coached—we've had some of the people that you've worked with as past guests who are selling two, three-plus million dollars a year. So just thank you from both of us for all the impact and certainly for your time today.

Jim Falk: Thank you. You guys have become masterful at the interview, and I love that you're willing to spend your own time and bring this content to the industry. I truly believe it's important to help other people within our industry because it helps us all raise the bar. If we all raise the bar, that's good for all of us. I applaud what you guys are doing. It's awesome.

Michael Murray: Well, thanks for being a part of it and kind of paving that path forward. We'd love to have you on at some point in the future, hear more about how the VP of sales role is going. I'm sure at that point you guys will be headed towards $20 million and just continuing to change what's possible and give us all something to strive for. So thank you.

Jim Falk: Thank you both, appreciated.

Jon Bryant: Thanks, Jim. Appreciate you, man.

Michael Murray: Anybody listening, obviously stay tuned. We're going to have a lot of really great guests like Jim. Make sure that you like and subscribe and keep the algorithms happy. But Jim, thank you again for your time today and for all the impact in our lives over the past years.

Jim Falk: My pleasure. Thank you both.

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