How to Sell More Painting Jobs [Top Sales Rep Strategies]

Michael Murray: Hi everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Price. Sell. Paint. Podcast. I am joined by Jon Bryant and a good friend, Connor Forbeck, sales rep at Sound Painting Solution in Seattle. Hey Connor, how are you?

Connor Forbeck: Happy to be here, Michael. Living the dream.

Michael Murray: Awesome, man. So tell us a little bit about yourself as we get started. Just kind of introduce yourself to the audience. For those that might not be too familiar with you, just give us a little bit of your background and tell us a little bit about your story.

Connor Forbeck: Yeah, so after graduating college at Missouri State University, go Bears, my wife and I decided to move out West to kind of see what it's all about and stumbled across Sound Painting. I was doing events, catering, wedding sales before this. So no real experience other than paint goes on walls. It's been about seven and a half years now as being an estimator, I guess you would call it, assistant to the regional sales manager of me and one other sales rep. So I guess you can call me a sales manager, but of two people, including myself. So I'm a salesman, a machine. That's what I do.

Michael Murray: I like it.

Jon Bryant: Dude, yeah. I mean, the reason you're here for those who are listening along and are interested—we, in PaintScout, we track how everyone performs and Connor, I mean, we were interested to learn from you because you are a top sales rep in the system. And I would suspect, and we'll talk a little bit about this, but you may not have known that until, I don't know, three months ago. But your rankings and your stats are incredible. And I think it's just really something interesting that we can all learn from. So, I think it's worth digging into a little bit of the stats of last year, just to give people a lay of the land and have people kind of understand a couple of things. Like one, your story, obviously, why it's important that we kind of learn from you. But in addition, just what's possible. And so, I'll go over a few things. We've got kind of some rankings, so I'm going to find this really quickly. And I believe you were—so you're definitely in the top 20. I believe you're number six total ranking on residential for sales reps, number 11 total in the system. So that was your ranking in 2023 for your sales. And I want to dig into a couple of things.

Michael Murray: There you go.

Connor Forbeck: No, just kidding. Jon Bryant's going to make me blush. You have to buy me dinner first, man.

Jon Bryant: Yeah, well done. Yeah, exactly. Well, dude, I mean, it's impressive though, right? It's the first time we've ever been able to see in real time how people are performing in an industry that's typically pretty siloed. Nobody really knows. And you think you've done well based on that other one rep that you are in the same bucket as. But ultimately, it's a great accomplishment. So, do you want to tell us a little bit about maybe what was your sales volume last year?

Connor Forbeck: Yeah, so total closed business, I think was $2,322,000 approximately. Yeah, there is some change somewhere in there. If I pull up my smart sheets, I could tell you, but—

Jon Bryant: Just approximately, okay? Can we get to have a sense? Probably.

Michael Murray: Those top sales guys know their numbers.

Connor Forbeck: Yeah, yeah. I mean, they're supposed to, right? I think that last year was 53 or 54% win rate on business estimated. So we look at it as if you sent a bid, it's qualified. So then we base our win rate off of sent bids. But I don't do it for just going out, because I'll go out to a lot of crap.

Jon Bryant: Right. So what's impressive though about those numbers is—yeah, the rankings that I was talking about are on dollar sold, but actually you're probably in the top 1% for win rate as well. So we find, last year, the average for PaintScout would have been probably, I want to say five to 10% lower last year than that. And so that's a significant number.

Michael Murray: I think it was like 46% if I'm going off memory, something like that.

Jon Bryant: 46%, that's correct, yeah. Couldn't remember off the top of my head. So that's, yeah, it's interesting.

Connor Forbeck: I think this year I'm like 57%. So something like that. Yeah, it's going really well this year.

Jon Bryant: Wow, well done. That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah, I mean, thanks. One of the questions I had for that was, so you've got the win rate, you got the close rate. Do you know roughly how many estimates you sent last year?

Connor Forbeck: I would say between 875 and 935.

Jon Bryant: Just roughly. Love that.

Michael Murray: Point six.

Connor Forbeck: Somewhere right around there. Sorry, I don't have it in front of me. It will freeze this program if I look so—

Jon Bryant: Cool. I'll look it up just to give people some context, but yeah.

Michael Murray: Let me ask you a question, Connor. So you mentioned a minute ago, the stat that you referenced closing at that rate or winning at that rate based on the sent bids. And you said, I often go out and see projects that we don't send a bid to. And so I'd love to talk about that for a minute because I feel like that's a point that maybe we can gloss over and some sales reps listening might have something to learn here. So talk a little bit more about, first of all, what kind of criteria do you use to determine that? And then second of all, how do you do that in a way to avoid maybe negative reviews or just negative feelings because somebody didn't get their quote that they feel entitled to or whatever.

Connor Forbeck: Yeah, yeah. Honestly, it's just identifying with the client what they think is correct. I ask, when I qualify someone, let's say it's a price-based decision, then I just tell them, I'm like, "Hey man, Michael, I'm going to be at $20,000 for your project. Is there a world where you actually see yourself spending that? Or if someone comes in lower, do you think you'll just take that?" Well, you would say, "I'm getting multiple bids, yada yada, but maybe if someone was lower, I'd probably go there." I'd say, "Well, does it make sense to even send a bid then if we might not even have a chance to win the business?" I try to put the onus on my client because I'm not here to tell them what to do or how to spend their money. They're here to buy our service if they believe it's the best fit for them. And that's how my whole philosophy is built around—client first, but it's really making them understand that, hey, we might not be for them and that's okay.

Michael Murray: It sounds like that might take a little while though. You might be there for 15, 20, 30 minutes before you can get to that realization based on some conversations and stuff like that. Tell me more about that.

Connor Forbeck: I would say realistically, let's call it a presentation even though it's not much of one, but I would say I'm talking to the client 45 minutes at almost every single bid unless it's going very poorly. And then 15 minutes of estimating, maybe 20, and then I'm out the door. So about an hour is what we do. And I had one yesterday that was an hour and 30 minutes long. We were just jiving. And he had me end up looking at—he called us there for one thing and then it was like $50,000 by the time I walked out the door. And in residential, I think you guys know that's not very common to see a project that large.

Michael Murray: Walk out with a deposit check? Not yet. All right. Not yet. We'll come back to that one.

Connor Forbeck: No, no, no, no. That's the one that grosses me out, man. I can't do it. It's my own head trash. I could ask for the sale, but I never make them close on the spot. It's one of those things I can't get past as a consumer. It's head trash, I know. But unless it's under $5,000, I want them to trust that I'm not here for just now, that I'm here for a partner for life, basically. And I think by pressuring someone, it's just not going to work long-term. That's just my belief.

Michael Murray: Yeah. No, I hear you. I don't necessarily disagree. I was asking somewhat jokingly, but also just because you got—you said you had that great conversation and things like that, but yeah. Cool.

Jon Bryant: Connor, what happens when you're—you said sometimes you'll leave early. So walk us through a situation what that might happen.

Connor Forbeck: Well, so I read this quote one time that said the best time to talk about a price in a sales pitch is the first 10 minutes, the 10-minute mark or the 50-minute mark. And I think about that a lot when I apply it to when I'm actually interviewing someone for an estimate. So if I don't feel like there's any bonding, rapport—they've already asked me how much it's going to cost before there's any other questions or dialogue or pain or bonding rapport established, then I'm probably just going to tell them, "Hey, it's $20,000." And that client 99% of the time will say—and I'll say, "Well, is that not what you expected?" Now flip that. If the conversation is going well, then I'm going to tell them the price more at 50 minutes in because I know I've established all those check boxes of what I need for them to be willing to spend more money on me than a competitor. But I know if somebody's asking in the first five minutes, I probably have a very low probability of closing that. And I will jump right to the chase. I hate wasting my time.

Jon Bryant: So when you do that and they say—you tell them it's $20K. And they're like, "Whoa." At that point, what are you saying? How does that work?

Connor Forbeck: Well, Jon Bryant, what were you expecting it to be?

Jon Bryant: $7,000.

Connor Forbeck: $7,000. Oh man, I wish. Honestly, I just know that client's never going to work out, to be honest with you. I'm probably not going to spend a lot more time with them. And I would say something like this, I'd say, "I'm probably going to come in between $19,000 and $21,000 for this project before we type a bid. Why don't we do this? Jon Bryant, if you get multiple estimates on this, if you believe that everything we said was great, and you're willing to spend that money, then I'll get you a bid. But if it just doesn't seem like it's going to work out, or you think you found a better option for a lower price, I'm happy that you take that." I am never disappointed, Jon Bryant, if I lose a project. If there's toilet paper in the front tree, it wasn't me. No retribution, no retaliation.

Jon Bryant: Do you actually say that? That's like inception right there. Because as soon as that toilet paper is happening, who do they think it's going to be? For sure, Connor Forbeck. When you get that call, let us know, please. Yeah.

Connor Forbeck: 100%. Jon Bryant, I'm authentic, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that would be hilarious. But—

Michael Murray: Sound Painting Solutions branded.

Connor Forbeck: I just use the most obscure reference because people remember things like that. And then they also think, this is the most absurd thing somebody could say. Because I've seen it. I mean, I've seen sales reps where they're like, "Why is it me? Oh gosh, I can't eat. I can't pay my mortgage if you don't sign the contract." And it's just gross. It's like, we don't have to do that. We don't have to beg for things. You have to have some belief that you're going to be okay if you don't win this job, or you're in the wrong line. And the client has to know that. That it's okay to tell me no, or there's no trust.

Michael Murray: Yeah, I think that comes from having that abundance mindset where you know, "Hey, if I don't win this sale, it's going to be okay because I'm going to have some more opportunities today, tomorrow, this week, this month. I can still go hit my goals and the company can be successful even without this individual sale." Would you agree with that?

Connor Forbeck: 100%. It's part of my sales pitch. I tell people, I said, "I have three more of these today. I'm okay if you tell me no. Someone will hire us. I move on." Obviously I want to earn your business because I think we would be a great fit together. And I think we're going to fit the needs that you're looking for, but it's okay if you don't because somebody will. And I think that just gives a sense of calmness to the conversation. It takes the pressure out. And then I tell them, I mean, this is my personal approach. I tell them there's no contract today. There's no signatures. This isn't Glengarry Glen Ross, "Sign on the line that is dotted." I'm not going to pressure you. I want you to go into this fully comfortable that you're willing to spend $5,000, $10,000, $20,000, a million dollars with me. Because you've thought it's the correct way for you to go. And that's how I approach it.

Michael Murray: Yeah. I'd love to just have you tell us a little bit more about some of the numbers. What kind of—how many estimates would you say you do per week? Let's start with that.

Connor Forbeck: Okay, it's variable by season. So right now it's four to five a day.

Michael Murray: Okay, so we'll call it spring, early summer, just for context.

Connor Forbeck: 18 to 20, yeah. And then in the winter, it's like two to three a day. And then it's a lot of prospecting and hunting.

Michael Murray: Talk about—let's talk about some of that prospecting and hunting. I know that's been a big topic of conversation we've had on the podcast before. And I know from hearing from different sales reps and stuff that can be a maybe a new concept, something that's a little intimidating. Talk a little bit more about your strategy and your results and how you go about doing that.

Connor Forbeck: Yeah, I think I self-generate approximately two to three bids a month. It fluctuates, but it's LinkedIn messages, it's networking, it's organizations, the Chamber, BOMA, if you're familiar with that for commercial painting. Basically someone's usually said, "I've seen you at something else before." But I get out there. I'm pretty intentional about it. Because I know those leads aren't coming in between Thanksgiving and New Year's Eve. I just know it's going to be dead. So I have to do my legwork. But it's kind of an all the time thing. Part of our sales meeting is talking about—we call it a prospecting update. What have you done this week?

Jon Bryant: So when you do that, are you basing it off of activity or is it based off of number of leads you're getting? How do you base your success, I guess?

Connor Forbeck: Generating leads. Generating opportunities, honestly. I think because that's what marketing is. And basically you're just doing marketing, but grassroots version.

Jon Bryant: So how much of your work—of that $2.3 million you're generating, how much of it is going to be self-generated versus coming through kind of the lead line? Would you know?

Connor Forbeck: It varies by year. Sometimes I generate very small jobs. Sometimes I generated a $25,000 job in the middle of winter. It was great. So I would say realistically, it's like 5%, 7% of total revenue.

Jon Bryant: But it's also critical revenue though too, because it's during the harder times.

Connor Forbeck: It's only in the winter mainly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'm always trying to connect with people and I go to networking events and things like that year round, just to build that rapport to beg for the winter work. Because once you've done a seven-year sales cycle and November hits, you just know what to expect by now. It's going to be slow. You've got to help your company. And that's the key—that buy-in, that you have to help your company. They're not going to help you fully. It's a two-way street.

Jon Bryant: I think one thing that's interesting that you said there was that this is something you've got to do consistently and it's way before you actually need it, right? I think a lot of times people act when they actually need it and it's really consistency that wins the battle at the day. And so you don't know where those opportunities are coming from, but we do know that the cyclical nature of the painting industry happens every year. And so like you said, seven years in, you know it's going to happen. So set your strategy and your goals and your activity to match those patterns and you're going to be way better off. So that's really interesting.

Connor Forbeck: That's the only way to do it. Because once you need it, it's too late, in my opinion. Because then you're scrambling, and you can't build relationships overnight, especially for large-scale projects. Those are earned.

Jon Bryant: I think one thing—Michael told me years and years ago about explaining how people buy painting projects is really interesting. And so like, why do people get exterior painting? What would you say?

Connor Forbeck: Well, that's subjective, obviously, because every single client is going to say something different. I'll just give you an example. When someone tells me—I go, "Well, tell me about your process. Have you gotten anybody out here to look at it?" "Well, you're the first one out because we're crazy responsive and great, obviously." So I'm almost always first. So I'm always the first one to present to them. "Well, I'm getting three other estimates." I'm sure you know my next question. "Well, okay, you get these three estimates and what are you actually looking for? Anyone can paint your house, but what are you looking for? Jon Bryant, et cetera." And I find some of it's trauma based. So yesterday, asked the same question. Client said, "Well, we just had this painted a year ago, but my last painter didn't do any of the lead prep they promised. We had a newborn at home and paint chips were still finding in our yard a year later." That's an easy one. That's an easy pain point to sell off of.

My favorite personally is timing. They don't have time. "We're moving into this house December 31st. I'm going to hire the most qualified company I can find before, as long as they can meet my deadline." That's my easiest target. I love that, because I'm like, "Hell yeah, we can." But I hear pain, timing, budget, of course, and then it's experience, communication. I mean, I've heard everything under the sun as to why someone would hire me versus somebody else or somebody else, because you're always competing. And the issue I think we have in residential estimating is we think we're the only business that the client deems is capable to do their project. We think we're the best, right? And then the other two people they call out, the client thinks they're capable until they've been proven they're not capable. Does that make sense? You call three companies you think are qualified, and then you get three different prices and three different experiences with the estimator. So they already think we're on an even playing field, even if we're not at all.

Michael Murray: So how do you change that perception? I mean, I would assume most of the time you're the highest bid if I'm getting three bids as the homeowner. Is that pretty fair, would you say? Yeah. And I think a lot of the people that are going to take the time to listen to a podcast like this are going to resonate with that, right? They're not the low bid because they actually have some time to listen to a podcast and they're trying to get better. So kudos to those people. And so how do you approach that though? How do you have a conversation and specifically, how do you raise the perceived value that you're providing compared to somebody who might be able to save them hundreds or thousands of dollars?

Connor Forbeck: That's very accurate, yeah.

Connor Forbeck: Well, I think it's telling them how they're going to pay for it, to be honest with you. I always think you're going to pay for it one of two ways: monetarily or with pain. And they need to know which one they're getting into based on who they're hiring. And it's proving to the client basically by asking leading questions and engaging questions about what they're looking for and then saying, "Well, do you think those other guys are going to be able to do that for less?" And most of the time the answer's no. And then it's like, "Well, if those things go wrong, how are you going to feel? Are you going to think it's worth it? Are you going to be pulling your hair out by the end of a painting project because Tim, Steve, and Rick promised you this, but for half the cost?" But that's how I look at it. It's just engaging with the client, understanding what they want, and being upfront and honest about what you can deliver for the price you can do it at. And then just maybe a little bit of seed of doubt as to why would someone else be so cheap? Seeds of doubt don't hurt. I don't like kicking the legs out of the competition. I think it's gross. Even if I don't like the person I'm going against, I'm never going to say, "They stink. You shouldn't hire them." You're just punching down. And it makes you look gross.

I actually love being the second or third bid to be honest with you, if I can be, because then you can decipher, "Well, how did the last one go? Did they talk about this? They didn't?" Then it's easier to find pain if they've already gone through one or two.

Michael Murray: Yeah, I would love it. I mean, I think Jon Bryant will resonate with this, but we're typically at Textbook, we're typically the first bid too, I mean, all the reasons you said, right? We're doing more marketing. We're much more responsive. We try to get somebody out to your house within a couple of days, all of the things. And we often hear, "I need to get two more bids and can't get ahold of anybody." And it's all the common stuff. I wonder if there's a way to—and it's probably no, but it's like, is there a way to ask on the phone, "How many bids are you getting?" It's like, "Okay, great. I want to schedule myself as the third bid or at least the second bid." Because to your point, once you have that point of context, man, is it easier when you're the first one out there and they don't have anything else to compare it to. It's like, you don't know how good we are until you know what the others look like. Yeah.

Connor Forbeck: Yeah, and that slows your sales cycle down. Yeah, I wish I could schedule my estimates two weeks later than when they call, because then I 100% would be better at my job.

Michael Murray: Yeah, but then I guess the rebuttal to that is you're leaving the door open for somebody else to go out there and close it on the spot and they don't get the other bids. Certainly possible, I guess.

Connor Forbeck: Yeah, I guess. Yeah, it just depends on that. My sales approach does tailor a little bit to if I need the work tomorrow or if I need to work six months from now. If I need work, and it happens all the time—I think this entire December, January, February, we were selling projects to start a week later and my sales cycle got a lot shorter. But there were some concessions that went along with that, to be candid. Monetary mainly. If you do this, I'll give this. Or I'll give what you're looking for if it's within reason. And I'm okay with making less money as long as my guys are working year round.

Jon Bryant: What kind of concessions?

Michael Murray: Yeah, I mean you're making an investment in February to keep people around that become your top producers in June, July, August and it's a smart choice. As long as you know your numbers as a business owner or sales rep for sure.

Connor Forbeck: Yeah, we have a bottom line dollar that we could sell per hour. And that's what we base off of to go up. We start at a rate and we go down to that. And then in the summer, I'll just tell people to kick rocks if they try to ask me for a price break. I think I'm selling at $88 an hour right now for perspective. And this is May 17th. I could just get whatever I want because somebody will take it.

Jon Bryant: Absolutely. Yeah. So, I mean, there's a lot of discussion that I've heard around discounting and people talking about discounting being bad or being good. And I think we just described really the critical piece, which is that as businesses, we have a threshold we can't go below or else the whole thing doesn't work. And if you don't know that number, please look into some of the educational materials that are available with PaintScout, with the PCA. Because that number is so critical because you can start to get into a problem if you start to go too low as well.

Connor Forbeck: Can I explain what happened to me yesterday? My first appointment, exterior, paint two sides of the house, they're selling the house, restaining some pieces. The client, I asked the question, "Well, are you getting multiple estimates?" "Well, I got one guy out here," she said, "and I'm getting one more 30 minutes after you." Sweet. But she said, "The first guy said, 'Well, if Sound Painting comes in lower than me, I'll match it.'" And I said, "Huh. That's a weird way to say that. Does that mean you're not getting a fair price from the bat with their company that they're just willing to drop their price for a competitor?" And I—the seeds of doubt, you could see the wheels turning. Like, "Man, maybe I am getting taken advantage of." That's the wrong way to discount. There has to be an exchange in my opinion. Consumer gives this time, marketing, whatever, they get discounted rate. You don't just say, "I'll match my competitor," because that means you didn't give them a fair price and that's not fair for them and it's not fair for you.

Jon Bryant: The only counterpoint maybe to that, which—because that's a great example, by the way, because that is ridiculous—but is that I've seen it done before where people will say, "Hey, we will, if the price is lower, we'll match it." But what it really means is an apples to apples comparison. And so if the project is truly 100% apples to apples, well, we can talk about the price, but you know as well as I do, that's never going to happen. So—

Connor Forbeck: No. And I had a guy ask me, he said, "Will you match another company?" And I just said no. I was like, "Sorry, I gave you a fair price based on what we could do the work for." Now this is obviously summer work, so I don't really care, to be honest with you. And I just said no. I was like, "Most of these companies don't do benefits. They don't have the same payroll burden that we do. They don't own a building. How am I supposed to match them? Hire me because you believe my price is right. But this is what it takes to do it."

Michael Murray: Yeah, for sure. And it's helping the customer understand that these are—to your point from earlier, you're going to—we've made these investments for this reason, right? The customer should only pay for things that the customer is getting value for. And so it's like, ultimately they are paying for the health insurance of the painters that are at their house or they're not. And Sound, as well as us, have made the decision that we believe that's a good thing for the customer because it's going to give our employees better stability. They can show up to work in a better headspace and provide a better experience for our clients. But some people don't care. And it might be in a commercial setting or whatever where they're just like, "I just need a lower price." And it's like, cool. You shouldn't go with us. You shouldn't pay for things that you don't see value in.

Connor Forbeck: Yeah, if I did not vet someone correctly and I sent them a bid and then they price shopped me, shame on me because I should have known that was going to happen. Because I didn't do my job correctly. But that means they didn't value what we were offering. And you should know that as the estimator. You shouldn't be surprised too much when somebody price shops you. And then you always get complimented on your bid.

Jon Bryant: I can't live on compliments.

Connor Forbeck: Have you ever been paid in compliments, guys? Because I—Trident layers and compliments I've been paid on.

Michael Murray: You'll be hungry if that's all you're getting paid on.

Jon Bryant: Yeah, bid looked great, but...

Connor Forbeck: 100%. "You had the best bid. PaintScout is the best app out there."

Michael Murray: I mean, that's true.

Jon Bryant: That's true. I mean, you nailed that part of it, but you still got to bring value to the table and you've got to have that process down.

Jon Bryant: So I have a question for you about kind of how you got into the industry. How long did you feel like it took you before you could start really excelling as a sales rep in the paint industry?

Connor Forbeck: Man, it was rough. I'll be honest. I think my first year I closed at a win rate of 18%. I mean, it was brutal. I sent every single estimate that I went to. I just didn't have the foundation or understanding of the industry, of in-home sales. My boss was very patient with me. Because a lot of sales reps—if they're not performing in six months, people want them out the door. They don't want the investment, because it takes a lot of time. But he waited, and then it just kept going up from there. So I would say literally January of the following year, I started improving and then it's pretty much just gone up, up, up every single year as I get better at the job. But I try—he could see I was trying. I studied, I went to the paint brands, learned the materials, took the sales training courses, listened to the podcasts, and then changed your sales approach too. That's the thing I think we forget is what works today might not work tomorrow. But it was a lot of faith because salespeople are expensive and I stunk. I really stunk my first year.

Michael Murray: I'd love to hear maybe some more specifics. Sounds like you have an awesome growth mindset, continually learning and improving, sharpening the sword if you will. What kind of tools—be specific. You mentioned maybe books, training classes, podcasts. Obviously anybody listening is already listening to the best podcast for anyone in sales in the painting industry. Wink wink nudge nudge, but there's other good resources out there. And so share some of those. What kind of things have been beneficial for you?

Connor Forbeck: Yeah, I think where I lacked was a process. I think you could say all the right things, but if you don't have a process for how you do your sales pitch, it just comes out as jumbled. So I personally did the Sandler sales training courses, which you can find pretty much anywhere. It's just a question-based belief, finding pain, bonding rapport. I would say most salespeople tend to gravitate towards that sales training, having that firm belief and grasp and then adding pieces onto it. Jed Blount, I think his name is—Sales EQ. That was one of my favorite books I ever read. It's about emotional intelligence and understanding people and how to apply that to sales. Between that, I mean, your guys' podcast, of course. And I mean, I've read some real interesting books also that I did not take anything away from, so I won't mention them. Grant Cardone, cough cough.

But between that, I think it's about just emotional intelligence, questions, and understanding. If you could do those three things and you know enough about paint to get by, you're going to be fine. You don't have to tell them the sheen percentage of eggshell at Sherwin-Williams versus Benjamin Moore. They don't care. That's where I think people get lost in the sauce. Most clients—this is how much I tell people about the process. "Yeah, well pressure wash, scrape, sand, caulk, prime, two coats of paint." I don't usually have to say more. They don't care. They'll read it on the bid if they want to. But that's about how long I spend telling people about the process. Now I'll tell them more about the impact. "Your landscaping needs to get trimmed back." "Do you have safety hook harnesses?" Things like that that make them think about that we've already almost won the project and we're working together. But about process, not much. It's all about people.

Michael Murray: Yeah, that's the experience they're going to provide, not necessarily the nuts and bolts of what you're going to do. I like that.

Connor Forbeck: 100%. Because everyone's going to say the same thing. Painting hasn't changed that much in 30 years, has it?

Michael Murray: More than that when you're talking about time.

Jon Bryant: Yeah, the only thing that's changed in 40 years, maybe the paint sprayer. Outside of that, it's been the same trade for millennia. Yeah.

Connor Forbeck: That's what I'm saying. I mean, every bid's going to say spray and backroll, prime, peel bond, whatever. That's not going to differentiate you.

Michael Murray: Well, and yeah, to your point, if it is, it won't for long because anybody can go to the paint store and buy the same paint and the same primers and the same caulk. And you have to have something else that makes you special.

Connor Forbeck: I mean, I've seen competitors steal my bid. The client sent it to them, they just copy and paste it and made it theirs on another bid. I mean, it's just like, yeah, your bids won't differentiate you. Your interactions will, except for PaintScout.

Jon Bryant: Well, I think what the power of that is—so much of the time is spent discussing with the customer, but you still have to know your price, right? Or else all those discussion points—you can be the best person to talk to, get to know the customer, bond and rapport. But if you come up with a really crappy price, whether it's way too high or way too low, and you're having discussions around that, you're totally misled off the start. And I think I hear a lot of people out there talk about how it's just about spending time with your customer, but you can get into the worst possible business situations without understanding your costs and your price. So that's where software and stuff comes in, I think.

Connor Forbeck: For sure. Production rates. Honestly, I do a lot of my numbers in my head as I look at projects. I'm guessing when I give someone a range of costs, I'm doing it off of how many hours I think the job's going to take. And then I validate that with my production rates. I'll never send a bid without using my rates also, even seven years later. Because you make mistakes, you don't see things, you forget a third coat really does add a lot of time. Things like that. But I do try to give every single client a range of cost. So I always say to get the defibrillator ready so they don't have a heart attack when they see it in writing. Don't steal all my lines, guys.

Michael Murray: It sounds like fun. I want to listen in on one of these bids. I mean, this sounds like an entertaining experience.

Jon Bryant: Yeah, man.

Connor Forbeck: Hey, I am a character.

Michael Murray: I like it. That we know. I want to finish on one more question just relevant to where do you think things are going? What type of changes? You've been doing this a while, seven years. That's not a short amount of time. You've seen some changes, right? We've gone through COVID and post-COVID and here we are now, 2024 and the economic landscape. Where do you think things are headed? Put on your prognostication hat here and what do you think might be changing in the industry specifically to how we sell and estimate projects and stuff?

Connor Forbeck: Well, as an economist—no, I'm just kidding. Man, that's tough. Because this winter, I saw some of the lowest prices of competitor bids that I've ever seen. Which was very interesting. They've always been low, but I'm like, they're not even making a profit, much less—they're actually losing money to do this project. So I would say the economy this last winter was pretty dreadful. And I felt it with the kind of bids that were competing against. And some of them weren't just chuck-in-a-truck, they were real businesses. But we were seeing that quite often, which was a scary forecast.

Now then the summer—I think May 1st last year we had sold $600,000 in exterior painting to be done that coming summer. At May 1st this year, we were over $1.1 million sold in exterior. So I don't understand. If the economy is bad here, but then six months later, it's the best it's ever been. Something weird is going on. I personally think it's the housing market. People aren't moving. And if interest rates stay high, they've got to make their home their own. They can't just buy a different house. But I still see people spending money every day. My last client, the one right before this today, he put on a new roof, he's getting priced for windows, and he's painting the whole house. Those are like three of the most expensive things you can do. So people are spending money, but when does the gravy train run out? I don't know. Sorry if that doesn't help.

Jon Bryant: Well, it's a great cliffhanger to leave this podcast on today. So Connor, thanks for being with us, man. Exactly. It is fun learning from you. You have a ton of insight and thanks for being on the podcast today. It's been a pleasure. I'll wrap it up just by saying, man, I appreciate your just fun attitude towards this and also just understanding that the customer is really—it's up to them what to decide. And I think I take that a lot out of what you're saying. So thank you for sharing that with us and just being here. So Michael, any closing thoughts for me?

Michael Murray: Yeah, no, I mean, I love—I think the biggest thing I would say, if I had one of our sales reps at our team listening, is it just sounds like Connor's genuine. He is himself. And yeah, I would imagine if you're hanging out, you're having a beer with him and he's just a fun guy who's joking and he's got a funny little one-liner for each thing. And I think he's bringing that to the estimating process. And I would imagine that's serving him well. I think that is why customers are giving—his numbers are awesome. Top six, I think you said, in the entire PaintScout ecosystem. And it's just like, he's just being himself and he's genuine. And I think customers appreciate that.

Jon Bryant: Totally. So yeah guys, thanks again for tuning in. As we talked to top reps in the industry. And again, if you liked it, feel free to like, subscribe and do whatever it means to follow along. Tell a friend as Michael always says, because I guess friends—you should help friends out. So anyways, thanks for being with us. We'll see you again soon. Peace.

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